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(Insert Radrook's long response from Post #518 here. I don't want to take up half the page)
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While I appreciate you taking the time to do a thorough response, the more I read, the more it became clear that we're not likely going to have a real discussion here without it de-evolving quickly so I may not say much after this if I see that happening. With all due respect, your bluntness shifted to prejudice very quickly. I don't have time to go through every point, but I think a lot of my would be responses show up to some degree in my previous posts and we'll see if I can get back to it them this weekend.
In your post, you accused me of having an anti Christian view, saying the the bible says the earth is flat when I was clearly being hypothetical, and claimed that because I question a fundamentalist translation of something that I have an aversion to God's law... them's fightin' words wer I come from .. Seriously I haven't had this many radical judgments made about me based on so little information on any forum in a very long time. The sad thing is I haven't even claimed or taken a particular side other than "there are questionable aspects of this and we need to be less judgmental and shift our priorities" (if you can call that a side) or offered a particular solution. I don't see how my "side" has been disproved this by any means, especially reading the rest of this thread up till now.
You seem to be very good at seeing the big picture from a fundamentalist only standpoint, but the point of my posts is to get people to see the big picture from both sides as well as the middle. The Big Gay picture I suppose you could call it, lol. This is not a black and White picture as far as I see our understanding of it, even if it is from God's view. In fact, this picture is complicated enough that entire book have been written about it on both sides, so its hard even know how to cover all sides without writing a book's worth of posts. I've covered in much more detail my concerns with the fundamentalist only approach in previous posts. I'll have to go back and look later on if I can. Btw, I was hoping you'd answer the question in post #505. I'm exploring that word too and I am curious to see how you reconcile other things that word describes.
Anyways, I'm sorry you think my "take everything into account, occasionally theorize, and be slow to judge" way of understanding God's word is anti-Christian and as insulting as that is, (myself being a life long Christian and still mostly fundamentalist at heart), that's your right. I have no aversions here, only uncertainties and suspicions regarding our interpretations. I'm out on time this week so we may have to just have to agree to disagree on this one. I'll keep an eye on this discussion though in case I get some more free time. God bless, and...judge not, lest... hey, that almost rhymes ;p
Last edited by Jrhockney; 05-20-2011 at 05:22 PM..
There is ample scientific evidence indicating that orientation is inborn, or develops due to a complex series of biological and environmental changes. Either way, one's sexual orientation is largely established long before people can make a choice about it. Not to mention, you seem to quickly dismiss the millions of gays who specifically tell you they never chose to be gay, many of which have prayed to God for decades for him to change it and nothing happens.
When did you choose to be straight?
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Very few issues have been abused using the Bible as much as the gay argument. As for me, I know for a fact that orientation is inborn. I know that God makes people gay and it's just another part of his varied creation. Over 450 animal species have homosexuals in them. Penguins and Giraffes, for example, are incapable of making rational choices about their sexual orientation. They were born that way. Humans are no different.
there is not one proven study that one is born homosexual------choosing one's type of sexual activity and choosing what type of person one can relate to emotionally and physically is a CHOICE----and if our creator wanted it to be the same sex we would ALL have uteruses----and the ability to impregnate one's self
there are many reasons why one chooses the same sex and 99% of them have to do with emotions and feelings-----hmmmm!
Youre wrong about 'not a shred of evidence' ... thousands of gay people have changed their sexual orientation just like billions have had their lack of moral-orientations changed as well thru the distinct power of Christ available to their behalf.
It is not Gods desire for a person to deviate from what he designed and implemented for our sexuality, and God never says 'no' to any one regarding that , for that would violate this own character , the way he designed people , and his written instructions to all of mankind. If some people cant change from their present homosexual acting out , then it is because either they havent reached the point of earnestly wanting to exit it, they have developed a support system to help justify staying in it, they are not willing or havent put in the hard work of processing thru it with guided christian counselling , they find emotional solace by going deeper into the lifestyle, and/or they have not yielded to Christ entirely thus allowing Satan to still have reign over their lives. These also happen to be the reasons for ANY compulsive addictive disorder that has a person enslaved --- the very reason Christ came to earth to die on the cross was for us to be overcomers of sin in addition to having all our many sins forgiven....so, that alone is proof positive that it is possible because its Gods biggest desire , his plan of salvation for everyone.
[quote=Fiyero;19241488]There is ample scientific evidence indicating that orientation is inborn, or develops due to a complex series of biological and environmental changes. Either way, one's sexual orientation is largely established long before people can make a choice about it. Not to mention, you seem to quickly dismiss the millions of gays who specifically tell you they never chose to be gay, many of which have prayed to God for decades for him to change it and nothing happens.
I think I'll have to take your word on the millions of ignored prayers to God, assuming you've conducted a respectable poll, but please elaborate on the ample scientific evidence. I am sincerely curious, but also well informed. I hope to hear from you on that, and by ample I'm assuming that you will be able to provide at least 2 studies. Actually I think that's all the conclusive evidence one would need, 'conclusive' being the key word.
Very few issues have been abused using the Bible as much as the gay argument. As for me, I know for a fact that orientation is inborn. I know that God makes people gay and it's just another part of his varied creation. Over 450 animal species have homosexuals in them. Penguins and Giraffes, for example, are incapable of making rational choices about their sexual orientation. They were born that way. Humans are no different.
Are you stating conclusively that members of the animal species referred to, prefer same sex copulation exclusively, or are you stating that homosexual/bisexual behavior has been observed within those species? Not that it would be the study to end all studies, but you must admit there is a big difference between the two conclusions.
In any event, surely you're not pinning the hopes of the homosexual community on the coincidence that woodland creatures are not very discriminatory when in heat. Animals, and creepy crawlers all have strange habits. The female Praying Mantis as well as members of the arachnid family, eat their mate after having sex. Dogs of every type have been known to return to their vomit to consume it, as well as their own feces. (I apologize for the crudeness). If a foreign male lion enters the pride of another male lion and impregnates a female within that pride, it has been documented and videotaped that he will kill every cub that is not his own. It is also well known that certain animals will eat their young. Whales will sometimes beach themselves for no known reason, though they can only survive for a short period of time out of water. Salmon swim up stream to spawn. I could continue, but I hope you see my point.
I wanted to show that the unpredictable and often wild and eratic behavior of animals should not be used as a pattern to explain our own. Man was created in the image of God and we were purposely endowed with characteristics and features which are distinctive and even similar to his own.
Looking forward to seeing a couple of conclusive studies. Thanks again.
Last edited by Pennsylvanian1; 05-20-2011 at 08:00 PM..
In your post, you accused me of having an anti Christian view, saying the the bible says the earth is flat when I was clearly being hypothetical, and claimed that because I question a fundamentalist translation of something that I have an aversion to God's law... them's fightin' words wer I come from ......
Well, what can be expected if you make statements such as the following one you just made on this post.
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"This is not a black and White picture as far as I see our understanding of it, even if it is from God's view."
When you express disregard for God's view and place yours in its stead-then in that way,then what other conclusion can the reader reach? Your modus operandi reminds me of rthe following words:
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Rev 3:15. know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!....
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You seem to be very good at seeing the big picture from a fundamentalist only standpoint, but the point of my posts is to get people to see the big picture from both sides as well as the middle. The Big Gay picture I suppose you could call it, lol.
Unfortunately, that requires that we give less importance to God's either black/white position. Not everyone feels he can do that and get away Scott free. Especially in view of al the biblical warnings against that kind of approach.
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.... I was hoping you'd answer the question in post #505. I'm exploring that word too and I am curious to see how you reconcile other things that word describes.
I'll go back to that post and see what it's about.
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Anyways, I'm sorry you think my "take everything into account, occasionally theorize, and be slow to judge" way of understanding God's word is anti-Christian and as insulting as that is, (myself being a life long Christian and still mostly fundamentalist at heart), that's your right. I have no aversions here, only uncertainties and suspicions regarding our interpretations.....
My intention wasn't meant to be insulting because I didn't think that a person who says that regardless of what God's opinion is he prefers his own would feel insulted by the very conclusion he is encouraging. In any case if it need come accross that way I apologize.
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God bless, and...judge not, lest... hey, that almost rhymes ;p
Please try not to express opinions in a way that leads the reader into reaching conclusions you consider insults. Thanks! And once more my sincere apologies!
there is not one proven study that one is born homosexual------choosing one's type of sexual activity and choosing what type of person one can relate to emotionally and physically is a CHOICE----and if our creator wanted it to be the same sex we would ALL have uteruses----and the ability to impregnate one's self
there are many reasons why one chooses the same sex and 99% of them have to do with emotions and feelings-----hmmmm!
100% wrong wrong wrong. Please learn some science and psychology. God made gays and loves them!
Honestly, the amount of logical disconnect it requires to believe your statement makes me weep for humanity. Being hated by most of humanity (and it being a capital punishment in some countries), suffering from abnormally high rates of depression and suicide due to the stigma, being denied equal rights and being treated like 2nd class citizen, being told God hates you and you're going to Hell every day, etc. etc. Who on earth would ever choose to live like that just so they can be with a member of the same-sex? That line of reasoning is so absurdly stupid. Humans have a survival extinct. Choosing to be gay often goes against that extinct. Heck, in Iran, gays are forced to get sex-changes, just to be with their partner since being gay is a capital crime. Are you seriously going to tell me, men have who absolutely no desire to be a woman, are more likely to choose to have their genitals removed and go on hormone therapy to become the opposite sex instead of just choosing to be straight? I seriously have no words if you believe that.
I think this thread proves the OP's point that many Chistians do not know what homosexuality is.
For those who think that homosexuality is just a chosen behavior of sex acts, and don't bother to inverstigate further, I suppose it is not surprising that they don't bother to investigate further about the handful of obscure verses in the Bible that suggest same-sex sexual acts. The described acts are limited to temple prostitution, male rape, and the sex practices involved in the worship of pagan fertility gods. These verses do not describe homosexuality. Most of these same-sex sexual acts would have been by heterosexual people anyway, not homosexuals.
For example, why is it that those Christians who think the story of Lot and Sodom is about homosexuals, never seem to know about the similar story of the Levite stranger in Judges 19?
Is it because they've never even read it? Or because it shows that men who threatened other men with rape were actually heterosexual, not homosexual?
I think this thread proves the OP's point that many Christians do not know what homosexuality is.
A problem is at time you or the OP would state those who disagree with you in the slightest about what homosexuality is are "wrong" whether the evidence supports that or not.
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Originally Posted by Jaymax
For those who think that homosexuality is just a chosen behavior of sex acts, and don't bother to investigate further, I suppose it is not surprising that they don't bother to investigate further about the handful of obscure verses in the Bible that suggest same-sex sexual acts.
I'm aware of different theories on those verses, but I don't see them as unimpeachable proof the way you likely would. They may be correct or they may be incorrect.
And even if they were you've shown nothing that indicates the Bible accepts homosexual activity. Considering the Theodosian Code, the writing of the Church Fathers, and the implications from the Gospels (Marriage is male-female, sex outside of marriage is wrong) I think you don't show that because you really can't. I originally said something harsher, but basically I just don't see how one can read the Bible or Judaeo-Christian history as accepting of homosexuality without radically re-interpreting history. And personally I feel such revisionism is not warranted. I can try to respect that others feel it is warranted and is even true. I just don't agree.
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Originally Posted by Jaymax
The described acts are limited to temple prostitution, male rape, and the sex practices involved in the worship of pagan fertility gods. These verses do not describe homosexuality.
Maybe. This position is defensible anyway.
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Originally Posted by Jaymax
Most of these same-sex sexual acts would have been by heterosexual people anyway, not homosexuals.
That's a bit of a leap. There were fertility god rituals that involved heterosexual sex, that doesn't mean the people who did them were actually gay and just doing it as a religious duty.
I think in many or most cases men in Hellenistic cultures had sex with men, in ritual or prostitution contexts, because they enjoyed having sex with men. Or at the very least we can't really say whether most of them were heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual as we use the terms.
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Originally Posted by Jaymax
Is it because they've never even read it? Or because it shows that men who threatened other men with rape were actually heterosexual, not homosexual?
A common flaw on C-D's religious section is people tending to think their own interpretations or understanding of the Bible, no matter how unique to themselves, is the same as incontrovertible facts. They're not. My interpretations aren't necessarily right either I grant.
And this is what makes this so difficult. There is very little room for compromise or common-ground. Everyone thinks they have the right Bible view or whatever on the matter and that other views aren't simply inaccurate but are instead "hatefully intolerant" or "damnably heretical." I don't see how this conversation can ever get anywhere to be honest.
100% wrong wrong wrong. Please learn some science and psychology. God made gays and loves them!
Honestly, the amount of logical disconnect it requires to believe your statement makes me weep for humanity. Being hated by most of humanity (and it being a capital punishment in some countries), suffering from abnormally high rates of depression and suicide due to the stigma, being denied equal rights and being treated like 2nd class citizen, being told God hates you and you're going to Hell every day, etc. etc. Who on earth would ever choose to live like that just so they can be with a member of the same-sex? That line of reasoning is so absurdly stupid. Humans have a survival extinct. Choosing to be gay often goes against that extinct. Heck, in Iran, gays are forced to get sex-changes, just to be with their partner since being gay is a capital crime. Are you seriously going to tell me, men have who absolutely no desire to be a woman, are more likely to choose to have their genitals removed and go on hormone therapy to become the opposite sex instead of just choosing to be straight? I seriously have no words if you believe that.
you are reading into my response things i have NOT said but suit your agenda---btw---i spent over 40 years in the medical/psychiatric field so i do not need a review on physiology,but maybe you may----also NO ONE i have ever met have told homosexuals that God hates them and i teach religion in my spare time
100% wrong wrong wrong. Please learn some science and psychology. God made gays and loves them!
Honestly, the amount of logical disconnect it requires to believe your statement makes me weep for humanity. Being hated by most of humanity (and it being a capital punishment in some countries), suffering from abnormally high rates of depression and suicide due to the stigma, being denied equal rights and being treated like 2nd class citizen, being told God hates you and you're going to Hell every day, etc. etc. Who on earth would ever choose to live like that just so they can be with a member of the same-sex? That line of reasoning is so absurdly stupid. Humans have a survival extinct. Choosing to be gay often goes against that extinct. Heck, in Iran, gays are forced to get sex-changes, just to be with their partner since being gay is a capital crime. Are you seriously going to tell me, men have who absolutely no desire to be a woman, are more likely to choose to have their genitals removed and go on hormone therapy to become the opposite sex instead of just choosing to be straight? I seriously have no words if you believe that.
Hello Fiyero,
You definately have a very firm grasp on the various responses people exhibit when encountering homosexuals, and the sometimes hurtful insults they express, but that of course is an analysis of the minds of your opposition. I haven't seen much in the way of evidence supporting a few of the statements you've made pertaining to the mind and physiology of the homosexual.
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"Please learn some science and psychology".
"I've done plenty of research and person introspection"
I don't believe that anyone actually doubts that homosexual behavior, 'in humans', brings about certain consequences, and while the exact etiology may not be known, it certainly seems to fall under the criteria of a compulsive sexual disorder, or psycho-sexual disorder, even though the behavior does not limit a person's ability to function in society.
Let's stop talking about the plight, and the great sufferings of the homosexual. I'll have to take your word for it that someone is telling you that, (and I quote)"God hates you and you're going to Hell, every day" .
Lets begin to address the reasons you believe that you were born homosexual. If your belief is somehow based on previous studies, which you have referred to in previous comments, mentioning science and psychology, then present this irrefutable and conclusive evidence. But, if your conclusions are based solely on personal introspection, this means that you are drawing conclusions based on how you feel or think, and self analysis can be extremely deceiving. One pedophile was convinced that in some ways he loved children more than their own parents. Some Voyeurs and Rapists were convinced that women actually wanted to be watched or raped. These men would also tell you that they didn't choose to be what they are. Personal introspection really has little merit, especially when attempting to explain ones own behavior.
Let's skip the animal studies, they're a little too easy to refute. I'm sure that you don't want to mimic the nature of the beasts.
Last edited by Pennsylvanian1; 05-21-2011 at 08:18 AM..
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.. Seriously I haven't had this many radical judgments made about me based on so little information on any forum in a very long time. The sad thing is I haven't even claimed or taken a particular side other than "there are questionable aspects of this and we need to be less judgmental and shift our priorities" (if you can call that a side) or offered a particular solution. I don't see how my "side" has been disproved this by any means, especially reading the rest of this thread up till now. 
