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You definately have a very firm grasp on the various responses people exhibit when encountering homosexuals, and the sometimes hurtful insults, but that of course is an analysis of the minds of your opposition. I haven't seen much in the way of evidence supporting a few of the statements you've made.
"Please learn some science and psychology".
"I've done plenty of research and person introspection"
I don't believe that anyone actually doubts that homosexual behavior, 'in humans', brings about certain consequences, and whilel the exact etiology may not be known, it certainly seems to fall under the criteria of a compulsive sexual disorder, even though the behavior does not limit the person's ability to function in society.
Let's stop talking about the plight, and the great sufferings of the homosexual. I'll have to take your word for it that someone is telling you that, (and I quote)"God hates you and you're going to Hell every day" .
Lets begin to address the reasons you believe that you were born homosexual. If your belief is somehow based on previous studies, which you have referred to in previous comments, mentioning science and psychology, then present this irrefutable and conclusive evidence. But, if your conclusions are based solely on personal introspection, this means that you are drawing conclusions based on how you feel or think, and self analysis can be extremely deceiving. A pedophile was convinced that in some ways he loved children more than their own parents. Some Voyeurs and Rapists were convinced that women actually wanted to be watched or raped. These men would also tell you that they didn't choose to be what they are. Personal introspection really has little merit, especially when attempting to explain ones own behavior.
Let's skip the animal studies, they're a little too easy to refute. I'm sure that you don't want to model yourself after the nature of the beasts.
Yet another person who hasn't a clue what homosexuality is.
You might try any health website. It's so easy to do, so why do you choose to remain ignorant?
You don't see others saying that Christians don't understand what theft, murder, adultery, bestiality, spiritism, lying, is do you? This is ridiculous!
1. I dont know how or when you started to develop these strong feelings toward the same sex , but I can tell you that it is really no different than someone who develops strong feelings for any compulsive desire whether it be same sex attraction, money acquisition, material acquisition, lieing to coverup or make onself look better , drugs, drink, or nail biting. There is available victory over all these things in the power of God working in ones life and perhaps coupled with good strong counselling -- God wants us to be Overcomers of such things that own us . It starts with a personal relationship with Christ who broke the power of all sin and who sets us free by the sacrifice he himself made on the cross. But one must recieve these Christ merits unto oneself...for, we are powerless in our own strength to overcome such vices.
2. You can choose to marry your b/f if you want , and a few States will acommodate that , however, I can see that you are in turmoil over this entire issue of homosexuality because you know inherently that it isnt correct according to the spirit of God in you who is trying to gently convict you of the wrongdoing. God works this way in all of us, so im not condemning you by saying what i just said. God has given us a moral conscience and he often engergizes that when we start getting off the right track in a big time way. For that we should be thankful. Now, the ball is in our court.
3. The Bible was written for ALL generations, because Mankind doesnt really change that much inwardly...in fact, the same sins that are going on today were going on since virtually day one. There are no higher and more important moral laws than what the Bible mandates for a successful, protected, and civil way to live ... and no one has ever been regretful for following them. Its when we want to do our own thing that we experience what we sow . If we sow to please God then we get blessings and feel a peace in our lives ; if we sow to please our own lusts, improper desires, etc... then we reap regret and often devastation. That too, is our choice. The Bible can be shown to be shown to be supernatural in origin thru humdreds of prior predictions (prophecies) that have been fulfilled written hundreds of years in advance, nearly 100 specific scientific processes and facts that were recorded in the old testament during 2-4,000 b.c. that modern science eventually got around to confirming as totally accurate, the way the Bible reveals the true heart and motives of man , the power the Bible has to change lives for the better, and the opportunity to really know the very personal Creator of our universe in a real dynamic personal and meaningful way. Each has this opportunity if ones pride shall allow --- if it does, then that person discovers his/her ultimate purpose in being alive at this moment in history , for, what can be better and bigger than really knowing the personal Creator/Designer who wants to be known and enjoyed (both now and after physical death) ? Peace .
P.S. I might add, that, there is a national organization which is distinctively christian called Celebrate Recovery that is offered at many thousands of churches around the country that deal specifically with such complusive desires in a group setting whereby strict confidence is demanded . IVe been regarding a heterosexual addiction I once had , and it was very instrumental in my recovery and continued victory . They have a website too, under 'Celebrate Recovery' --- its kind of like a 10 step christian program with some added beneficial things.
First of all, I have nothing to overcome. Second of all, I hope some day you understand how everything you just said is really nothing but backwards, outdated rubbish.
People need to stop shutting their brains off and hiding behind the bible and actually start accepting the real world.
"Second, I've done plenty of research and person introspection. Hence why I don't think God has a problem with gays."
Can you please share what you base your thinking on (i.e relative to God not having a problem with homosexual behavior)? I wonder if this boils down to a "my thoughts" vs the "Bible".
First of all, I have nothing to overcome. Second of all, I hope some day you understand how everything you just said is really nothing but backwards, outdated rubbish.
People need to stop shutting their brains off and hiding behind the bible and actually start accepting the real world.
Shutting off the brain is of course an imposibility while alive, but I understand that you were simply trying to use a strong metaphor to emphasize the point that you believe Christians are somehow weak minded. I can appreciate your misguided passion, and I do understand why you assert yourself in defense of your way of life.
In all fairness, I suppose reality is a very subjective term. It varies depending on your frame of reference. For Christians, we believe that our eyes were opened to the truth of God's plan of salvation for mankind through Jesus Christ, and so, Heaven, Hell, and the Trinity are very much part of our reality. Our renewed lives stand as a memorial to God's ability to change lives, against a dark backdrop of willful sin. Your reality, of course, would be something completely different.
I have been asking a few people in this forum, not necessarily yourself, exactly what basis homosexuals believe they have that causes them to continue to refer to science and psychology as part of their reasoning. There has actually been very little intellectual discourse, apart from biblical word etymology, some insults, a very thorough explanation of the great sufferings of the homosexual, and even the wild notion that we should pattern ourselves after behavior within the animal kingdom, but no talk of scientific findings or studies. Are the homosexuals hiding something?
Some homosexuals have actually stated that they are completely convinced that homosexuality is "inborn". I've simply asked on what basis they've so confidently made this assertion.
I believe that in 1973', the APA took a dive while receiving pressure from all sides, when declassifying homosexuality as a disorder. I could have understood a re-classifiication into some type of psycho-sexual terminology but not a total declassification. So far, all that I've learned is that homosexuals have become professionals at expounding on their perceived state of being victimized.
You don't see others saying that Christians don't understand what theft, murder, adultery, bestiality, spiritism, lying, is do you? This is ridiculous!
Which has nothing at all to do with homosexuality. So your statement is ridiculous.
Which has nothing at all to do with homosexuality. So your statement is ridiculous.
I think he just means constantly telling people they don't what they're saying can get grating. Not that I precisely agree with him.
Homosexuality, as I understand it, is when a person is primarily or exclusively attracted to their own sex. This can be both romantic/affectionately and sexually. Why people are homosexual, or why it evolved, is actually not fully understood. Which I don't think is your understanding, but is correct so far as I know. True science is aware of neurological and perceptual differences in homosexuals, but what causes them I don't think has been proven. We do know that about 50% of the time when one identical twin is gay the other isn't. Which argues for it having a genetic element, but probably not being simply genetically determined or inevitable. Some gays I've talked with on this think that the non-genetic aspect, if they recognize such a thing, involves factors in the womb. There is some correlation to birth order among male homosexuals as younger sons tend to be more likely to be gay. I was thinking this could argue for social/environmental reasons, but even when younger sons are adopted into a family without sons they still tend to be more likely to be homosexual.
Female orientation, going by what I've read thus far, seems to be somewhat more fluid. Singer Leslie Gore (It's My Party, etc) claims she was not aware of her own lesbianism until her 20s. The rate of women engaging in same-sex relationships has increased in recent years and seems to fluctuate more from what I've read.
Homosexuality is also not a "disorder" in terms of secular psychology as it does not harm one's ability to function within the terms a highly secular culture (the psychological community) defines as valid. Active homosexuals have the same tendency toward happiness, friendship, avoiding hurting others, treating others fairly, respecting the liberties of others, and obeying the law as anyone else. Issues of more concern to "traditional societies" (tradition, respect, sanctity/purity) would not be relevant to psychology as they are "irrational" or at least unquantifiable to science. As we're not a theocracy, and despite what you might think I'm glad for that, secular psychology should be the basis of who's mentally ill for all legal purposes.
All that said I do not "believe" in secular psychology as my life philosophy. Nor do I see even an innate longing to be one that must be obeyed. The Judaeo-Christian tradition has been pretty clear on homosexuality no matter how much revisionism one can engage in with the Bible. It creates a couple that lacks half of the human experience, either the male or female half. The sexual element of it also involves using non-sex organs for sexual purposes. Lastly it is sterile and unlike sterile heterosexuals, whose unions are blessed or praised, there's nothing in the Bible to support it. However not everyone is orthodox Christian, Orthodox Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Baha'i, Zoroastrian, or Tibetan Buddhist so I think those of cultures who feel different certainly have that right. Or who just personally choose not to be any of those faiths.
And I'm sure you'll tell me I don't understand it either and I'm certainly not an expert. However I've read some research on this off/on for many years.
The real world? LOL! Surely you jest. Since each person is responsible for creating his own perceived reality as Sartre pointed out then that means that we should adopt yours and discard ours simply because you say so? Thanx but no thanx. Our Bible-based reality is non-negotiable.
I think he just means constantly telling people they don't what they're saying can get grating. Not that I precisely agree with him.
Homosexuality, as I understand it, is when a person is primarily or exclusively attracted to their own sex. This can be both romantic/affectionately and sexually. Why people are homosexual, or why it evolved, is actually not fully understood. Which I don't think is your understanding, but is correct so far as I know. True science is aware of neurological and perceptual differences in homosexuals, but what causes them I don't think has been proven. We do know that about 50% of the time when one identical twin is gay the other isn't. Which argues for it having a genetic element, but probably not being simply genetically determined or inevitable. Some gays I've talked with on this think that the non-genetic aspect, if they recognize such a thing, involves factors in the womb. There is some correlation to birth order among male homosexuals as younger sons tend to be more likely to be gay. I was thinking this could argue for social/environmental reasons, but even when younger sons are adopted into a family without sons they still tend to be more likely to be homosexual.
I agree with you 100% on your comments regarding Judeo-Christian values. The bible is very clear in most areas of sexual immorality. However, you might be interested to know a few more things about the Twin studies. These studies were conducted or headed by 2 men, Michael Bailey and Richard Pillard in 91'. This is a favorite study of many homosexuals in these types of discussions, and I don't really want to be the one to rain on the gay pride parade, but there were a few problems with the studies.
The tests were not the first, but are probably the most famous. They conducted studies on twins using questionnaires to determine if the maternal brothers were both gay, in order to prove whether homosexuality was genetic.
Identical Twin Brothers = 52% (meaning 48% were not) Fraternal (non-identical)= 22% (meaning 78% were not) non-related brothers = 11%
-For some reason a portion of the study was omitted from their report, which would have demonstrated that Related non-twin brothers were only both homosexual about 9% of the time. If this had supported their theory, it would, no doubt, have been left in.
-Another significant factor is that one of the men conducting the research, Richard Pillard- (homosexual), was a gay activist. This may not have influenced the results, but lets just say he had reason to be very motivated.
-Another interesting note, when gathering subjects for their tests they simply advertised through homosexual publications, and handed them questionnaires. Many considered the report biased on that basis alone.
The most obvious point is that if homosexuality is genetic in identical twins, (for example), the study should have proven that the brother of a gay twin should also be gay 100% of the time, but as you can see they were not. This flawed, and questionable study came under serious scrutiny within the scientific community, and rightfully so.
Another interesting development was that one of the researchers, (Michael Bailey -heterosexual), expressed the fact that he doubted his own findings due to the means of recruitment, believing that the results may be inflated.
Wouldn't pin my hopes on this one boys! But I'm sure there are others. Aren't there?? Surely all of the hoopla about gay rights has to be about something. Could it be that the government, the educational system, the American Psychiatric Assoc., and the state of Massachusetts, are all catering to a large number of men, and women, who simply share the same sexual deviancy/fettish/psycho-sexual disorder??
Last edited by Pennsylvanian1; 05-21-2011 at 08:21 PM..
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