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However I believe there is a true nature of the texts to convey a meaning beyond what literal text we can read. Since I have been reading the text with that in mind, I can read what is there and it does not contradict in the sense of the typical inerrant assertions, but conveys a message that is trustworthy.
I can't and won't disagree with this thinking. It comes down to, does someone operate in the Bible when it suits them, or on the Bible as a whole (warts and all).
The new testament certainly contradicts the old testament as to the nature of God and how he relates to humanity. Christs example of who God is shows that the way in which the old testament portrays God is not accurate, that is to say if Christ truly is the manifest image of deity and his example of the nature and character of God is in fact superior to all others.
But the New Testament does not conceal or in any way try to hide this fact. The new testament comes right out and declares the old testament to be in error, and that is the reason why the New Covenant was made to begin with.
Hebrews 7:11-22
Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.
This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life. For it is witnessed of him, “You are a priest forever,
after the order of Melchizedek.”
For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath, but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him:
“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind,
‘You are a priest forever.’” This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
The old testament and the old covenant and the law which is under the old covenant contradict the New testament and the law of liberty which is procured under the new Covenant. The former commandment(the Law of the old covenant) is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness ... And a better new hope is introduced, being of necessity different than the old, the law itself being changed also by necessity, from the law of sin and death according to the old covenant by Moses, to the law of liberty and life according to that which is the new covenant in Christ ...
But the contradictions between the old and new testaments are not without good reason, as the old was for the purpose of convicting mankind of sin, condemning all to death, and for revealing to us the nature of evil ... While the new covenant is for the purpose of providing reformation, and for the justification of all to life, revealing the true nature of the goodness of God in his love for all mankind manifestly proven by his work in Christ on the cross.
Peace ...
Wasn't the OT Kings, laws and covenants brought about because the people wanted it?
Wasn't the OT Kings, laws and covenants brought about because the people wanted it?
Well, yes and no ... It is true that the people of Israel required of Moses to give them law in order that they might learn how to earn Gods grace. But it was Gods intention that they should want it at the same time, as he provided for them an external influence in the civilization of Egypt and in the religion of the Maobites which was taught by Moses' father in law Jethro, the Midianite high priest of Baal-peor who instructed Moses in the giving of the law and of the establishment of judges among the people.
Only God gave them what they needed and not necessarily what they wanted. He Gave them a law that only proved to condemn them at ever turn, and which offered no other recourse to entering Gods Grace beside sin offerings.
Most Jews and most Christians do not realize the influence which the religions of Egypt and the religions of the Moabites had on ancient Israel, the Hebrew religion itself being a syncretistic religious system composed of various prehistoric religions, fused together with the genuine revelations of "Jehovah" ...
That is why the old testament laws are so brutal, because they were influenced by the brutal Pagan religions of those developed civilizations which surrounded the Israeli's from the very beginning, even before Abraham was Called out of Chaldea ...
Of Course all of this was part of Gods plan, as he always intended that the nation of Israel would be made enemies of the gospel so that they would reject their own messiah and so that Grace would be extended to all humanity in the death and resurrection of Christ.
I've presented my very simple points clearly here but as usual debating with a devout christian is like talking to a fencepost.
And as usual, when there is no substance in your points you talk about fenceposts rather than dealing with the fact that you have no idea what a parable is.
Quote:
I'll nibble on this childish baiting [as you foolishly admitted to Verna] one more time, then that's it.
Sure, that's what they all say.
Quote:
Jesus did not tell human beings to murder each other because...? he knew damned well his father already had his "commanding human beings to murder each other" program more than well covered.
Well, you still have not resolved the problem since just in Deuteronomy we do not find wording that condemns slavery like many believe we should see, in fact we find instruction on how to treat slaves. So by that logic God talks about slavery the same way you will say God talks about murder. So you still have not resolved the problem presented to you.
Verna, I gotta ask, who has accused jesus of lying? I see many posting where some are rushing to the defense of jesus or god professing they never lied. Perhaps I've missed it, but who said they did, and about what?
Or are these just spontaneous outbursts, without reason?
Oh my goodness, Verna, calm down! I haven't plowed through this whole thread, but so far, how many people have told you that they believe Jesus is a liar? Don't you ever get tired of preaching hellfire and damnation? And tell me, how's it working out for you?
1 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these sayings, he departed from Galilee, and came into the coasts of Judaea beyond Jordan;
2 And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there.
3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.
16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
27Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
30But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.
Bless Your holy Word Father.
Thank you Jesus.
In Christ's love...and prayerfully in His truth,Verna.
1Ti 2:4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.
Hebrews 2: (speaking to the repentant, changed, regenerated, obedient, adopted into the sonship of Christ, sons of God...not willfull sinners)
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing MANY sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
Hebrews 12:
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 25See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
In Christ love...and prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
Last edited by Verna Perry; 09-30-2010 at 09:05 AM..
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...and Jesus said...
