Would jesus have lied? (testimony, abomination, believe, abortion)

[Harold Kupp]

Would Jesus have lied?

Mystic writes:

Situation-tempered ethics . . . e.g., LYING to Nazi Gestapo about where the Jews are is NOT SINFUL lying or bearing false witness . . . even though it is WILLFUL!

In the language of Mystic “situation tempered ethics” means breaking the God’s law if your “state of mind” tells you it is the right thing to do. Which means do not listen to the ten commandments - listen to your own heart.

Question:
Would Jesus have lied to save the Jews who were hiding?

My answer would be: Absolutely not! Satan is the Father of liars and liars are an abomination to God. There are no holy lies.

So what is right?… Is it willful sin to deliberately lie if our intentions are good? How far do we take that – would it be sin if Jesus were to commit adultery to save the Jews? Murder?

If your answer is “No, it is not willful sin if your intentions are good.” Is that not the same kind of thinking which causes some Christians to murder abortion doctors?


HK

Jer 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: “

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by Harold Kupp

Would Jesus have lied?
In the language of Mystic “situation tempered ethics” means breaking the God’s law if your “state of mind” tells you it is the right thing to do. Which means do not listen to the ten commandments - listen to your own heart.

What is the purpose of the law, Harold? In the language of Harold . . . "to be OBEDIENT." ABOVE ALL obedience for the sake of obedience is the ONLY purpose our Supreme God has for us according to Harold . . . talk about primitive OT nonsense and ignorance carried over to a misunderstanding of Jesus. Following God's commandments have a spiritual purpose far beyond obedience for obedience sake! Our "state of mind" IS critical and DOES define our actions. The ideal response to the Nazis would be silence and the acceptance of any consequences that silence produced. Given our weakness . . . if we must respond in fear of those consequences (because we are weak) . . . then willful lying is the better option than truth which "casts pearls before swine" and facilitates further evil. Telling the truth makes you an accomplice to evil while you congratulate yourself on your OBEDIENCE.

Question:
Would Jesus have lied to save the Jews who were hiding?

Jesus would have remained silent.

So what is right?… Is it willful sin to deliberately lie if our intentions are good? How far do we take that – would it be sin if Jesus were to commit adultery to save the Jews? Murder?

Nonsense straw men, Harold. We are imperfect . . . but as Christians our state of mind compels us to act in love of God AND each other. If we are not capable of the perfection of Jesus . . . we act out of love and we are safe . . . something you seem ill-equipped to comprehend . . . since I detect very little if any love in your posts. As I said . . your OBEDIENCE code resembles that of the Nazis.

If your answer is “No, it is not willful sin if your intentions are good.” Is that not the same kind of thinking which causes some Christians to murder abortion doctors?

Murder is not an act of love. There are many misguided souls and deranged individuals in the world, Harold . . . their existence does not justify your intolerant and primitive understandings.

Jer 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: “

ONLY the selfish and self-centered heart has these traits, Harold.

[Harold Kupp]

First Mystic says:

Situation-tempered ethics . . . e.g., LYING to Nazi Gestapo about where the Jews are is NOT SINFUL lying or bearing false witness . . . even though it is WILLFUL

Then later when asked if Jesus would lie to the Nazi Gestapo about where Jews were hiding Mystic says:

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

Jesus would have remained silent. .

Now the question for Mystic is: "If it is "NOT SINFUL lying" why would Jesus have remained silent?


It seems like Mystic's theology is flexible when necessary to keep him from being embarrassed.

HK

"Anything is possible in Wonderland"

[moonsavvy]

And here I thought Mystic and Harold were becoming good friends.

Nothing surprises me anymore...

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by Harold Kupp

First Mystic says:
Then later when asked if Jesus would lie to the Nazi Gestapo about where Jews were hiding Mystic says:
Now the question for Mystic is: "If it is "NOT SINFUL lying" why would Jesus have remained silent?

Because there is no lie in Him . . . He is God and perfect. WE are NOT, Harold . . . but we are under Grace in our weaknesses . . . if we act of out LOVE. My disagreement with you has always been with your intolerant and OT understanding of the purpose of our spiritual edification. We are NOT to be OBEDIENT pets MINDLESSLY following our Master's commands . . . OR ELSE be eternally damned. We are to apply our understanding and love to ALL the elements in a given situation and act first and foremost out of LOVE of God and EACH OTHER. The guidance of the Holy Spirit will lead us in the Grace of Jesus and will cover us in our weaknesses and imperfections.

It seems like Mystic's theology is flexible when necessary to keep him from being embarrassed.

i have no concern about embarrassment, Harold . . . my God is loving and merciful and understanding of my heart and intent . . . unlike your rigid Nazi God of intolerance and vindictive damnation.

[BudinAk]

So, given the hypothetical war-time situation as Mystic described, are we now saying it's better to tell the truth, and then watch the enemy slaughter the hidden Jews, or tell a lie and have them live?
I think I would rather face the eternal living God and tell Him "yes...I lied", rather than face Him and say "well...hey...it's not my fault...I told the truth!"

Legalism...

To answer the OP question: I don't believe Jesus would have lied, because He would without doubt have performed some miracle to resolve the situation. Most of us do not have that resource available...

So often we face a choice of choosing the "lesser of two evils", rather than a cut and dry choice of "this one is evil, but this one is good".
Choose wisely...consider the outcome...


Bud

[scgraham]

If asked by Nazi Gestapo about such a matter, a real person of God would say nothing at all. If it meant your own life, then that's the way it would be; many have given their lives as a testimony for God.

Did Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego willfully break God's commandment about idol worshiping?

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up. (Daniel 3:16-18)

His truth keeps marching on...

[HotinAZ]

There is a huge difference between the "letter" of the Law, and the "spirit" of the Law.

Remember Jesus talking about healing on the Sabbath? My, my, how sad some just dont SEE!!!!

[Harold Kupp]

First Mystic says that it is not a sin to lie to save somebody's life.

Then when asked if Jesus would lie to save somebody's life Mystic said Jesus would remain silent.

When asked why would Jesus remain silent if it was not a lie Mystic replies

Because there is no lie in Him . . . He is God and perfect. WE are NOT,

But Mystic - you just said it was not a lie - so why would Jesus remain silent if it was not a lie.... What difference does it make that there is no lie in Him if it is not a lie?

Nice try but I think people are beginning to see...

HK

"Curiouser and curiouser said Alice"

[Harold Kupp]

[quote=BudinAk;
To answer the OP question: I don't believe Jesus would have lied, because He would without doubt have performed some miracle to resolve the situation. Most of us do not have that resource available... Bud[/quote]


Bud does that mean we agree the it would be a sin to lie even to save somebody's life?

Are you saying Mystic is wrong?


HK