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Dear Milleka, I'd rather you be agnostic than atheist.
What do you think of all the many prophesies given over thousands of years by many different prophets concerning Jesus Christ and the odds of all of them coming true?
To me, that is just another thought that is very powerful.
The biggest obstacle that I find with that theory is...Christians attribute a whole bunch of alleged "OT Prophecy" to Jesus while the Jews (the ones who actually wrote the book) disagree wholeheartedly and there are very few actual verses that are attributed to their actual Messiah. Jesus also did not accomplish anything IN HIS LIFETIME that he was supposed to accomplish according to actual Jewish prophecy...which is why they REJECT him as Messiah.
Well, of course He was since what he said is based upon first hand witness information. Celsus is not credible because he is too far removed from the time Christ lived and bases what he writes on hearsay. What Christ said was true. What Celsus said was not.
Again, why do you make things so simplistic with the circular arguments. You argument is, "Hey, the Bible says blah blah blah so it MUST be true. Everybody else don't know what they are talking about because it is not in the bible so it can't be true."
Luke was a clever guy. It is possible he heard from so-called witnesses, but it could also be true that he KNEW he had to preface his book that way to give it credibility. We are expected to believe that Luke sat down and spoke with shepherds who claimed they saw angels. We are to believe he knew that god sent Gabriel to have a conversation with Mary - every last word - no questions asked???
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The difference between the Christian's Messiah and that of the pagan's is that over 500 witnesses saw Christ ascend into heaven. And many thousands saw Him after He rose from the dead.
Well, we can take his word for it. Nothing wrong with that, but other extenuating evidence suggests that what we have is nothing more than a LATER story, customized to the bias of those who wanted the Jewish community, and the world, to UNDERSTAND that THEIR Jesus was the man, the messiah, the god!
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Luke is credible.
Since his story appears to come from other Gospels that have questionable content, I have to also question Luke's account because it is practically a duplicate of the older Gospels of Matthew and Mark.
Last edited by InsaneInDaMembrane; 12-17-2010 at 06:25 AM..
The biggest obstacle that I find with that theory is...Christians attribute a whole bunch of alleged "OT Prophecy" to Jesus while the Jews (the ones who actually wrote the book) disagree wholeheartedly and there are very few actual verses that are attributed to their actual Messiah. Jesus also did not accomplish anything IN HIS LIFETIME that he was supposed to accomplish according to actual Jewish prophecy...which is why they REJECT him as Messiah.
[sarcasm]The Jews are WILLFULLY blind, remember? They are the most irrational, stubborn people on the planet who rejected Jesus just for the fun of it.[/sarcasm]
Originally Posted by Eusebius Dear Milleka, I'd rather you be agnostic than atheist.
What do you think of all the many prophesies given over thousands of years by many different prophets concerning Jesus Christ and the odds of all of them coming true?
To me, that is just another thought that is very powerful.
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Originally Posted by ChristyGrl
The biggest obstacle that I find with that theory is...Christians attribute a whole bunch of alleged "OT Prophecy" to Jesus while the Jews (the ones who actually wrote the book) disagree wholeheartedly and there are very few actual verses that are attributed to their actual Messiah. Jesus also did not accomplish anything IN HIS LIFETIME that he was supposed to accomplish according to actual Jewish prophecy...which is why they REJECT him as Messiah.
There were many tens of thousands of Jews in Christ's day that did not REJECT him as Messiah.
Also, you stated Jesus did not accomplish anything in His lifetime?
Acts 2:22-36 CLV Men! Israelites! Hear these words: Jesus, the
Nazarene, a Man demonstrated to be from God for you by powerful deeds
and miracles and signs, which God does through Him in the midst of you,
according as you yourselves are aware -" (23) This One, given up in the
specific counsel and foreknowledge of God, you, gibbeting by the hand of
the lawless, assassinate, (24) Whom God raises, loosing the pangs of
death, forasmuch as it was not possible for Him to be held by it." (25)
For David is saying to Him, I saw the Lord before me continually, Seeing
that He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken." (26) Therefore
gladdened was my heart, And exultant my tongue. Now, still my flesh also
shall be tenting in expectation, (27) For Thou wilt not be forsaking my
soul in the unseen, Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be
acquainted with decay." (28) Thou makest known to me the paths of
life. Thou wilt be filling me with gladness with Thy face.' (29) Men!
Brethren! Allow me to say to you with boldness concerning the patriarch
David, that he deceases also and was entombed, and his tomb is among
us until this day." (30) Being, then, inherently, a prophet, and having
perceived that God swears to him with an oath, out of the fruit of his loin
to seat One on his throne, (31) perceiving this before, he speaks
concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither forsaken in
the unseen, nor was His flesh acquainted with decay." (32) This Jesus
God raises, of Whom we all are witnesses." (33) Being, then, to the right
hand of God exalted, besides obtaining the promise of the holy spirit from
the Father, He pours out this which you are observing and hearing." (34)
For David did not ascend into the heavens, yet he is saying, 'Said the Lord
to my Lord, "Sit at My right" (35) Till I should be placing Thine enemies
for a footstool for Thy feet."'" (36) Let all the house of Israel know
certainly, then, that God makes Him Lord as well as Christ - this Jesus
Whom you crucify!"
After those Jews heard what Peter said many thousands of them believed Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus fulfilled that prophecy. The Jews knew He fulfilled that prophecy.
It could not be about David because his body was acquainted with decay. Jesus' was not.
There is no historical evidence of other gods coming to earth and redeeming their people.
Only Jesus.
ROFLMBO....historical EVIDENCE?????? What makes the Christos Mythology any more BELIEVABLE OR REAL than any other mythological figure presented to us through the ancients??????
The only evidence you can provide that a godman allegedly came to earth is what has been written in the bible...this is circular logic and proves absolutely NOTHING!
There were many contemporary historians around in the beginning of the first century...historians who were actually alive at the same time as Jesus allegedly was and yet we don't hear one little peep from them about this godman named Jesus. I find it absolutely fascinating that NOT ONE OF THESE CONTEMPORARY HISTORIANS heard or witnessed ANYTHING regarding a godman named Jesus...a godman who drew the masses to him, a godman who caused riots, etc....yes, it is absolutely fascintating.
There were many tens of thousands of Jews in Christ's day that did not REJECT him as Messiah.
Also, you stated Jesus did not accomplish anything in His lifetime?
Acts 2:22-36 CLV Men! Israelites! Hear these words: Jesus, the
Nazarene, a Man demonstrated to be from God for you by powerful deeds
and miracles and signs, which God does through Him in the midst of you,
according as you yourselves are aware -" (23) This One, given up in the
specific counsel and foreknowledge of God, you, gibbeting by the hand of
the lawless, assassinate, (24) Whom God raises, loosing the pangs of
death, forasmuch as it was not possible for Him to be held by it." (25)
For David is saying to Him, I saw the Lord before me continually, Seeing
that He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken." (26) Therefore
gladdened was my heart, And exultant my tongue. Now, still my flesh also
shall be tenting in expectation, (27) For Thou wilt not be forsaking my
soul in the unseen, Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be
acquainted with decay." (28) Thou makest known to me the paths of
life. Thou wilt be filling me with gladness with Thy face.' (29) Men!
Brethren! Allow me to say to you with boldness concerning the patriarch
David, that he deceases also and was entombed, and his tomb is among
us until this day." (30) Being, then, inherently, a prophet, and having
perceived that God swears to him with an oath, out of the fruit of his loin
to seat One on his throne, (31) perceiving this before, he speaks
concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither forsaken in
the unseen, nor was His flesh acquainted with decay." (32) This Jesus
God raises, of Whom we all are witnesses." (33) Being, then, to the right
hand of God exalted, besides obtaining the promise of the holy spirit from
the Father, He pours out this which you are observing and hearing." (34)
For David did not ascend into the heavens, yet he is saying, 'Said the Lord
to my Lord, "Sit at My right" (35) Till I should be placing Thine enemies
for a footstool for Thy feet."'" (36) Let all the house of Israel know
certainly, then, that God makes Him Lord as well as Christ - this Jesus
Whom you crucify!"
After those Jews heard what Peter said many thousands of them believed Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus fulfilled that prophecy. The Jews knew He fulfilled that prophecy.
It could not be about David because his body was acquainted with decay. Jesus' was not.
And we know this because.....wait for it.......
Wait for it...........
Keep on waiting for it.........
BECAUSE THE BIBLE TELLS US SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No offense.......but you CANNOT PROVE THE BIBLE AND THE STORIES CONTAINED THEREIN WITH THE BIBLE...this is better known as "CIRCULAR LOGIC" and it PROVES NOTHING.
No offense.......but you CANNOT PROVE THE BIBLE AND THE STORIES CONTAINED THEREIN WITH THE BIBLE...this is better known as "CIRCULAR LOGIC" and it PROVES NOTHING.
You can't disprove the Bible.
But facts are facts. The Old Testament historical accounts are not just made up. They are comprised of records carefully recorded over thousands of years of genealogies and the people who comprise those genealogies.
There is just no reason for the writers of the Bible to make up stories that make the ones in those genealogies look bad. If it was all a hoax they'd just write the good stuff.
ROFLMBO....historical EVIDENCE?????? What makes the Christos Mythology any more BELIEVABLE OR REAL than any other mythological figure presented to us through the ancients??????
Yes, historical evidence. People took the pain to write down what Jesus did and said. That is evidence in itself.
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The only evidence you can provide that a godman allegedly came to earth is what has been written in the bible...this is circular logic and proves absolutely NOTHING!
Actually it proves more than what you say it proves nothing.
Quote:
There were many contemporary historians around in the beginning of the first century...historians who were actually alive at the same time as Jesus allegedly was and yet we don't hear one little peep from them about this godman named Jesus. I find it absolutely fascinating that NOT ONE OF THESE CONTEMPORARY HISTORIANS heard or witnessed ANYTHING regarding a godman named Jesus...a godman who drew the masses to him, a godman who caused riots, etc....yes, it is absolutely fascintating.
That's a lie.
Had Rome not been burn't to the ground we'd have the court documents of Christ's trial and crucifixion as well.
[sarcasm]The Jews are WILLFULLY blind, remember? They are the most irrational, stubborn people on the planet who rejected Jesus just for the fun of it.[/sarcasm]
Have you noticed the BRICK WALL I was referring to??? ROFLMBO!!!
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