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Who said it was done for fun? It is done to bring the person to repentance. The Bible gives a very good example of this, when a man guilty of sexual immorality was asked to leave the church, so that he would repent and find his way back to the Lord.
If you have an unrepentant sinner in the church, and you just keep forgiving him week after week, and there is no change in his behaviour, you will have to ask him to leave. If you don't, other problems will arise. The Bible mentiones the rise of arrogance in other members as one problem. The other obvious problem is that it sends the message that habitual sin is tolerated in the house of God and within the ranks of the believers. I can't see many positive things come out of allowing such situation to go on week after week.
The example of excommunication in 1 Cor. was followed up in 2 Cor. with bringing the person back in, because he risked being "overtaken in sorrows." People can even commit suicide for such a thing.
In fact, the belief of God "excommunicating" unbelievers to hell would do no other than cause unspoken sorrow, wrath and pain. That's not what God's about. And although He permits us, even requires us to experience suffering in this earthly realm, it is not without His permission, and He brings us through it, He doesn't abandon us.
I don't know what types of experiences with love you have had, Finn; I have seen in my own life that love has done much to bring me closer to the Life we are called to live.
Sin, when left alone, has a way of dying out on its own. God waits, and Love conquers. I've seen it happen, and it happens every day!
The example of excommunication in 1 Cor. was followed up in 2 Cor. with bringing the person back in, because he risked being "overtaken in sorrows." People can even commit suicide for such a thing.
In fact, the belief of God "excommunicating" unbelievers to hell would do no other than cause unspoken sorrow, wrath and pain. That's not what God's about. And although He permits us, even requires us to experience suffering in this earthly realm, it is not without His permission, and He brings us through it, He doesn't abandon us.
I don't know what types of experiences with love you have had, Finn; I have seen in my own life that love has done much to bring me closer to the Life we are called to live.
Sin, when left alone, has a way of dying out on its own. God waits, and Love conquers. I've seen it happen, and it happens every day!
Blessings,
Brian
Whatever gets you through the night. Tolerate whatever you want, for as long as you want, or as long as your loved one dies because no one had the backbone to intervene in self-destructive lifestyle.
Read what happened to Eli when he failed to rebuke the sins if his sons.
Whatever gets you through the night. Tolerate whatever you want, for as long as you want, or as long as your loved one dies because no one had the backbone to intervene in self-destructive lifestyle.
Read what happened to Eli when he failed to rebuke the sins if his sons.
Why is it that these discussions always turn to "when your kids and wife are beaten and raped?"
I just don't get it.. It must be that "someone's out to get me" mentality again.
No one's out to get us, Finn. We are free to love people, nothing bad will happen. In fact, only good can come from Love!
"Rebuke" is an interesting word. Some synonyms, courtesy of dictionary.reference.com include: condemn, punish, castigate.
After Eli came One who was greater than him: Jesus.
Love covers a multitude of sins. It's the "new order" of things now, Finn. Love is the answer, not punishments and condemnation, but LOVE.
No one's out to get us, Finn. We are free to love people, nothing bad will happen. In fact, only good can come from Love!
No one said anything about someone wife and kids being raped, and no one said anything about someone coming to get someone. People do it to themselves.
You ask "I don't know what types of experiences with love you have had". You have no idea. I almost lost my brother because no one intervened in his drinking. We did what you preach, and just loved him and forgave him every time he did something that should not have been tolerated. It did nothing by escalate the problem, and in the end he came close to taking his own life. Finally we realized that action needed to be taken, not just assurances of love.
It is not love to watch someone destroy himself. It is NOT love to tolerate the sins of other people. I am sorry to tell you, but you don't have a clue what you are talking about here. If you think it is love to tolerate everything, then you don't know what love is.
God punished Eli's family severely because he failed to stop his sons from sinning. He loved them, but he did not do what God wanted him to do which would have been to intervene.
Sounds like quite a presumptous endeavor, doesn't it?
Not at all, many read the bible after being told by pastors and churches what it means, so it could be helpful to point out this is a bad way to read it.
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Most (if not all) denominations have a "creed." This "creed" is used to define them, to set them apart from others, and above all, to say, "we're the ones with the "right" doctrine."
There is a mixture among individual churches here, I have been to churches that believe they teach the true word of God and other churches do not, i have also been to churches that want to try to work together with other churches also. For the latter their creed is simply a means to help the congregational members to be of like mind.
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Well, my thought about this now (which I've seen elsewhere as well), is that it may be more useful to consider the Bible as a sort of "onion" with layers. We reach one layer and think we have reached "true understanding." But then we begin to discover that there is another layer, with "more" "true understanding." And on and on, growing into deeper truths about God, salvation, Jesus Christ, and man.
I agree here, over the years I have seen those layer peel away as I grow.
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So excommunicating someone may be a "lower level" of truth; but loving and supporting the one who errs, not excommunicating and excluding him/her, is a "higher" truth.
Well, I think perhaps the layer of translation covers over a more simple issue and that is the understanding that the typical church has a doctrinal creed and when one attends or joins the church there can be several things to consider.
First, members who join then later try to get the church to change it ways are trouble makers since when they joined they made a statement saying they agree with that churches doctrine. To then do an about face and be against what they formerly agreed upon is wrong and they should at the very least, address the issue with the leadership and then leave if the leadership does not see that they need to change anything.
I see no problems with throwing trouble makers out of church under those circumstances.
Secondly, a member in sin, again, we have to consider that a member should be aware of what the church considers a sin and if they are caught living in that sin, then the church leadership has every right to address that with a member. Someone just visiting or not a joined member perhaps can be approached first with the informatiopn of what the church considers sin and then let the person decide what avenues they will pursue at that point.
Lastly is a church protecting it's member ship from potential harm. No church has to tolerate behavior that is potentially dangerous or harmful.
of course, what is deemed harmful can varty based upon the ideas and perceptions of people in charge.
Even if someone may disagree with a churches stance on any particular behavior I believe a church has the right to police itself in that manner and someone elses opinion is irrelevant in a general sense.
With that said, in the USA I think though a church being tax exempt prevents itself from being completely immune from outside critisism.
I think if churches don't want that scrutiny then they need to give up thier tax exempt status.
However, when dealing with religion, most non codependant or dysfunctional people would not take much issue with a church that did not want them there, they would simply not attend there and would be better off anyway.
No one said anything about someone wife and kids being raped, and no one said anything about someone coming to get someone. People do it to themselves.
You ask "I don't know what types of experiences with love you have had". You have no idea. I almost lost my brother because no one intervened in his drinking. We did what you preach, and just loved him and forgave him every time he did something that should not have been tolerated. It did nothing by escalate the problem, and in the end he came close to taking his own life. Finally we realized that action needed to be taken, not just assurances of love.
It is not love to watch someone destroy himself. It is NOT love to tolerate the sins of other people. I am sorry to tell you, but you don't have a clue what you are talking about here. If you think it is love to tolerate everything, then you don't know what love is.
God punished Eli's family severely because he failed to stop his sons from sinning. He loved them, but he did not do what God wanted him to do which would have been to intervene.
Hi Finn,
Without going into your personal experience with your brother too much (my heart goes out to you and yours in your struggle), I still think that the love and support you gave him was the best thing. You can't change other people, and that's one of the first things that A.A. teaches people. (I know, because I worked as a chemical dependency counselor for several years in the US, and it was my major in college.)
So while I can agree that it might not be wise to support someone's drinking binge habits, the best medicine is always Love. The Lord has a way of "waking us up" at the right time, and it's right to leave those things to Him.
Excommunication is a means to "cleanse" a group. But Love doesn't pay attention to faults, because love cleanses by loving! It is always working towards reconciliation, always hoping the best, never bringing up wrongs others have done to it, preferring to cover and forget wrongs rather than bring them up and harp and dwell on them.
"Turn the other cheek" trumps "an eye for an eye." Mercy trumps judgement. Forgiveness trumps retribution.
God's ultimate plan has to be to forgive everyone no matter what they have done, because that is how love works. Love forgets wrongs, it doesn't fixate on them. It is not resentful, or say, "do you remember when you did such and such?" or "what about the time you did...?"
God is Love. Love prefers to cover wrongs, and is always willing to repair the breach.
And that's how we all must become if we want to be "high priests unto God." Being a high priest means forgiving and loving to the uttermost. Telling people what to do, threats of punishments, fixating on customs and creeds is not Love. Love accepts you for who you are, because you are! It doesn't demand it's own way or impose expectations; it supports you no matter whether you're up or down; it's always there to lift you up and help and encourage you. THAT is how Love wins. And it wins everytime. No matter who you are, no matter what sin you've committed, no matter your idea of yourself- God loves you, and you will be won by His Love which passes understanding.
So there are many teachings in the Bible which do not reflect what Love is, and that is what I mean by the "onion" effect. Some are only able to see the "eye for an eye" level, even though they may have frequented a church for years and years.
But Love thy enemy is a deeper level, and not all are able to understand this yet. But we will all get there!
Blessings to all!
Brian
Couldn't rep ya but I agree with this. Love conquers all things and when we love others in spite of their so called "sins", the love always wins out and the "sin" is conquered. It takes time. It takes patience. It can even take eternity. God waits through it all.
I'd like to share a quote from "Love Without End" that Jesus gave.
"You cannot define love with even the largest definition, for your understanding is not external to it. Because love is who you are, you will never fully comprehend its mysteries. Because love is who God is, love is the Divine Mystery. Love cannot be controlled. It cannot be predicted. It cannot be enforced. It cannot be enslaved. It cannot be killed. It cannot be defined. If you would speak of the depth, the power, and the infinite genius of love, think upon its ability to end all duality. Love has no opposites. It cannot be captured, and yet it willingly serves. It is infinitely free, and yet it abides in captivity. It cannot be enforced, and yet it is the basis of all law. It is the bringer of truth, and yet it never judges. It is the seer of all things, and yet it never condemns. It conquers by surrendering. It rules by lifting up. Through its mastery of paradox, love ends all duality."
Couldn't rep ya but I agree with this. Love conquers all things and when we love others in spite of their so called "sins", the love always wins out and the "sin" is conquered. It takes time. It takes patience. It can even take eternity. God waits through it all.
I'd like to share a quote from "Love Without End" that Jesus gave.
"You cannot define love with even the largest definition, for your understanding is not external to it. Because love is who you are, you will never fully comprehend its mysteries. Because love is who God is, love is the Divine Mystery. Love cannot be controlled. It cannot be predicted. It cannot be enforced. It cannot be enslaved. It cannot be killed. It cannot be defined. If you would speak of the depth, the power, and the infinite genius of love, think upon its ability to end all duality. Love has no opposites. It cannot be captured, and yet it willingly serves. It is infinitely free, and yet it abides in captivity. It cannot be enforced, and yet it is the basis of all law. It is the bringer of truth, and yet it never judges. It is the seer of all things, and yet it never condemns. It conquers by surrendering. It rules by lifting up. Through its mastery of paradox, love ends all duality."
Can I have your permission to paste the quote above all over the place?
We need more of these reminders; Love truly is bigger than us, and is perhaps the only weapon big enough to defeat the "big-ness" of death. The most glorious martyr is he/she who lays down his/her life in Love for all, including the malfactor.
No one said anything about someone wife and kids being raped, and no one said anything about someone coming to get someone. People do it to themselves.
You ask "I don't know what types of experiences with love you have had". You have no idea. I almost lost my brother because no one intervened in his drinking. We did what you preach, and just loved him and forgave him every time he did something that should not have been tolerated. It did nothing by escalate the problem, and in the end he came close to taking his own life. Finally we realized that action needed to be taken, not just assurances of love.
It is not love to watch someone destroy himself. It is NOT love to tolerate the sins of other people. I am sorry to tell you, but you don't have a clue what you are talking about here. If you think it is love to tolerate everything, then you don't know what love is.
God punished Eli's family severely because he failed to stop his sons from sinning. He loved them, but he did not do what God wanted him to do which would have been to intervene.
So while I can agree that it might not be wise to support someone's drinking binge habits, the best medicine is always Love. The Lord has a way of "waking us up" at the right time, and it's right to leave those things to Him.
Just my 2 cents..
Blessings Finn,
brian
I don't think you get my point. You keep saying that love is the answer to everything, but I am telling you that IT IS NOT LOVE to tolerate everything from everyone.
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