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Mike, you are just and fair enough to believe what you said here, even though it's not found in scripture. But, God is WAY more just and fair than you or anyone else. He is able to do exceedingly, abundantly above all that we can ask or think. I believe God will also show mercy to those who never developed sufficiently spiritually to be able to come to conceive of the concept and existence of a supreme being.
This might be someone who was raised by atheists, or a person who honored their father and mother by adhering strictly to the non-Christian religion that was required to be accepted in the family, or a person whose religious parents beat them while yelling about God, making the child equate God with the pain and suffering inflicted upon them, and on and on it goes.....valid reasons why someone might never develop spiritually enough to become a believer in Christ.
You can't just choose one or two groups of people that YOU have mercy on and think those are the only groups God is willing to forgive solely based on the blood of Jesus. You should realize that His blood is powerful enough to save everyone, and God is merciful enough to save everyone, and He will accomplish His will.
God does the saving. It is a complete work of God. If people can save themselves by simply making a wise choice, Jesus didn't need to die. Jesus died to save mankind and He will not fail. You reap what you sow and since no one can sow setting someone on fire for eternity, then they can't reap that!
I would rep, what you have sown if it were possible right now.
All I know is that the Bible says there is no thought where we go after we die. God alone is immortal. This is all throughout scripture (excluding the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man which contradicts hundreds of other scriptures for a reason).
1 Timothy 6:14-16 is talking about Jesus Christ. It is to Him the title 'King of Kings and Lord of Lords' belongs. Since Jesus Christ is the only member of the human race who has been resurrected, He alone possesses immortalty. But this refers to His body. As God, He is part of the trinity, and in His deity He has always possessed intrinsic immortality.
But man was created in the image of God. This refers to a shadow image, meaning real but invisible characteristics, such as self-consciousness, mentality, volition, conscience, and emotion. These characteristics belong to the human soul. Another characteristic which belongs to the soul is immortality. God has immortality which is intrinsic to Him. But God has given the human soul, the real person, immortality. At the resurrection, man's body will be made immortal. But man's soul is immortal now.
And no, Luke 16:19-31 does not contradict any other Scripture. The word of God does not contradict itself.
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Plato liked to think the soul was immortal, though.
This kind of translating is not responsible scholarship-it's confusing and contradictory. The Apostle Paul admonished Timothy to "have a pattern of sound words" (II Tim. 1:13) The Scriptures quoted above clearly show the translator's disregard for this instruction.
The Scriptures reveal the reality of the division of the body, soul, and human spirit. 1 Thess 5:23; Heb 4:12.
1 Thess 5:23 'Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 4:12 'For the word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two edged sword, piercng even to the dividing asnder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
In Matthew 10:28 it is seen that the soul survives the death of the body.
Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.'' This is in reference to the unbeliever who will end up in the lake of fire. It is seen that though man can kill the body, man cannot kill the soul. The soul continues to live on after the body has died. Jesus can destroy the soul in hell, but destuction does not mean annihilation. It means that the soul of the unbeliever will forever exist in a state of ruin and uselessness in the lake of fire in conscious suffering.
See also the following passages.
Revelation 6:9 'And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the alter the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10] and they cried out with a loud voice, sying, ''How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?''
These are the souls of those Tribulational believers who were martyred, and are in heaven. This is before their bodies are resurrected. They are conscious as can be seen.
Revelation 20:4 '...And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not been worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Here the tribulational martyrs in heaven are being resurrected.
Phil 1:21 'For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22] But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor; for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23] But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24] yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Paul did not say that it is better to enter into soul-sleep and remain unconsious or non-existant until he was resurrected. He said that it is better to depart and be with Christ. Remember also, that Paul had at one point been taken up into heaven as per 2 Corinthians 12:1-6. Paul didn't know if he had been taken up bodily or out of the body. It may be that he had actually died when he was stoned on one occasion (Acts 14:19). Paul had heard inexpressible words in heaven. As a result, he was given a thorn in his side to keep him humble after his experience.
2 Peter 1:13 'And I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling (his body), to stir you up by way of reminder, 14] knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15] And I will also be diligent that at ay time after my departure you may be able to call these things to mind.'
Peter speaks of the setting aside of his body and departing from it. He states that his body is his earthly dwelling. He dwells in his body. And he is about to depart from his body.
Luke 23:43 'And He said to him, ''Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.'' Since the resurrection and acension of Jesus, Paradise is located in the third heaven as per 2 Corinthians 12: 2-4. Prior to that, Paradise was located in Hades, separated from 'Torments' by the abyss. It was to Paradise in Hades that both Jesus and the thief went after they died.
Now, as amazing as it seems, there are people who in spite of all these passages will still deny that the soul which is the real person, is separate from the body and continues on in conscious existence.
The fact that in Deuteronomy 18:11 God prohibits any attempts to call up the dead, reveals that the soul continues to exist after death. Communication with the dead isn't permitted, but there was one occasion when God did allow it. Refer to 1 Samuel chapter 28.
In 1 Samuel chapter 28, God permitted the spirit of the prophet Samuel to be brought up from Sheol in a vision.
Last edited by Michael Way; 01-05-2011 at 12:43 AM..
The letters were circulated to the churches. The pastor would take selected passages and write them on what are called lexionaries and use them in his message to his congregation. One pastor teaching to x number of people. People would gather to hear Bible teaching from the pastor.
Do you understand? What is in the Bible is taught to a number of people who have gathered together for the purpose of learning. once the printing press was invented, then many more people had personal access to a Bible. But the scriptures were available to the church in the first century.
Yes, the Roman Catholic church forbade the ownership of the Bible. And yes, people suffered spiritually because they did not have access to the scriptures. There was great spiritual darkness at that time. Apart from having access to the scriptures, in some form or another, there is no way to learn about God or about the doctrines which pertain to the church.
Now today, most believers still don't know much about God because they don't study the word. God does not teach anyone about Him through osmosis. It requires decisions on the part of the believer to expose himself to sound doctrinal teaching.
That is interesting. The good news is that no one had to know and understand the whole Bible, but only core teaching to help them make the important desicion:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life
Last edited by Miss Blue; 01-05-2011 at 05:00 AM..
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That is interesting. The good news is that no one had to know and understand the whole Bible, but only core teaching to help them make the important desicion:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life
That is absolutely true. It is the gospel that leads to salvation. But the New Testament Epistles are for the believers spiritual growth after salvation. Without the scriptures, the believers spiritual growth can not occur. That is why I said that they suffered spiritually.
Anyone who has the mental capacity to understand the concept of the existence of a supreme being is held accountable by God.
The scriptures are clear that a decision must be made to receive Jesus Christ as Savior in order to receive eternal life. Only those who are unable to come to the point of God consciousness are automatically saved.
Mike, when do you believe Paul came to the point of God-consciousness? Before or after the Damascus Road experience? I believe he had only a religion-consciousness before that. He was not rejecting God at that time because he had no idea who God really was.
Paul only came to God-consciousness when God revealed Himself to him. So, at the point of TRUE God-consciousness he was unable to reject God and fell to his knees, confessing belief in the true and living God. I believe it's that way for everyone. Once they have TRUE God-consciousness (not just Bible study, church, a false perception of God, etc.), then they will no doubt believe in God (irresistable grace). Only God can reveal himself to us, and He will reveal Himself to each person in His own timing. It's not our choice when that will be.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Exercising faith in Christ is a non-meritorious act. The one who believes takes no credit. Ephesians 2:8 'For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, 9] not as a result of works, that no man should boast. It is plainly stated that salvation is the result of placing your faith in Christ, and that you can take no credit for it.
What you say is "plainly stated" is only plain if you reject other scriptures. You have to see the entire picture of Jesus' work on the cross by accepting all the scriptures to see them work together to paint the beautiful picture of God's love, mercy, and grace for all mankind. A good place to start is with Jesus' dying words, "Father forgive them for they KNOW NOT what they do." He didn't say, "Father forgive them as a result of them placing their faith in me."
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Salvation is the work of God. The gift of salvation is offered to all. But salvation is obtained only though faith in Christ. Again, the scriptures are absolutely clear on this. Only someone who does not believe what the Bible says would deny that. You do not save yourself by believing in Christ. It is God who saves. Personal faith in Jesus Christ is the means of reaching out to take the free gift of salvation that God offers. Salvation is only possible because of what Christ did on the cross. But apart from personal faith in Christ no one can appropriate what Christ did for them.
You say salvation is a work of God and it's a non-meritorious act that you can't take credit for, but what this really boils down to is that you DO have to DO something to "appropriate what Christ did for them," so in other words, you have to help God out. He has no saving power without your help. You have to DO something for Christ's sacrifice to do any good. This is a watered-down gospel.
Yes, salvation is a free gift from God, but no, it does not say in the Bible that one must accept the gift. What we were unable to do for ourselves, Christ did for us. Romans 5:6 says, "You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly." We were powerless. It doesn't say we had just enough power to be able to accept a gift. God saves the same way a lifeguard saves an unconscious drowning victim. The victim has no way to help himself - he is powerless.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
God's mercy is such that He gave His uniquely born Son to die on the cross for the sins of the world. BUT when Christ is rejected, then God's justice must come into play and judge those who reject what Jesus did on their behalf.
Dr. Phil says when someone says, "but" don't believe anything they said before the "but." Your "good news" has a BUT in it. The Good News I believe (what you said before the "but") does not.
That is absolutely true. It is the gospel that leads to salvation. But the New Testament Epistles are for the believers spiritual growth after salvation. Without the scriptures, the believers spiritual growth can not occur. That is why I said that they suffered spiritually.
Mike where are you getting your info ?. Where in scripture are we told the the gospel(which by the way is all good news) leads to salvation?The good news is, He is the Savior, faith brings us into the experience of it, the experince of it(salvation), is all that those who do not believe are missing out on in this life.Where also does it say the NT epistles are for the believers spiritual growth after salvation?.
Do you actually believe according to the scriptures unless God opens our eyes we will never know or recognize who he is.Read the account of the 2 men on the road to Emmaus to get conformation of this.
We are called to grow in the grace and in the knowledge of him(Do you believe this was only possible after Peter wrote this in his epistle ?). This is entirely possible without the scriptures,because truth is not limited to what is written in ink, infact truth is not limited at all. It's is Spirit in us Mike that makes all the difference and not the bible.
Mike where are you getting your info ?. Where in scripture are we told the the gospel(which by the way is all good news) leads to salvation?The good news is, He is the Savior.
The gospel message reveals the issue with regard to salvation. It tells of Jesus and what He did to bring salvation to those who place their faith in Him.
2 Timothy 3:14 'You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them; 15] and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
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Where also does it say the NT epistles are for the believers spiritual growth after salvation?.
How is it that you ask such a question? The very reason that God had His message for the church set down in writing in the New Testament Epistles is so that during the dispensation of the church, believers would have the doctrines of the word of God always available. During this church-age God has provided His instructions for the church in writing. It is through the teaching ministry of God the Holy Spirit that the doctrines contained in the written word may be transferred into the soul of the believer for the purpose of spiritual growth.
2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; 17] that the man of God may be mature, thoroughly furnished for every good work.
2 Tim 2:15 'Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
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Do you actually believe according to the scriptures unless God opens our eyes we will never know or recognize who he is.Read the account of the 2 men on the road to Emmaus to get conformation of this.
God has revealed Himself through His creation. He has further revealed Himself through the Scriptures. He provided the gospel and the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit by which the hearer of the gospel can understand the gospel. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Rom 10:17). Upon understanding the issue of salvation through the gospel message, man can either say yes or no to God's invitation to receive Christ as Savior.
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We are called to grow in the grace and in the knowledge of him(Do you believe this was only possible after Peter wrote this in his epistle ?). This is entirely possible without the scriptures,because truth is not limited to what is written in ink, infact truth is not limited at all. It's is Spirit in us Mike that makes all the difference and not the bible.
In times past, God communicated to man either directly, or through dreams, visions, angelic appearances, and prophets. At the beginning of the church-age, before God's message to man was set down in writing and during the time His word was being set down in writing, His word was communicated by the apostles and prophets. With the completion of the New Testament Canon, the need for apostles and prophets ceased. The believer now has his instructions in writing. God the Holy Spirit in His teaching ministry enables the belliever who is in fellowship and under His control to transfer the doctrines of the written word into his soul and metabolize it for the purpose of edification and spiritual growth. God has also given the spiritual gift of pastor/teacher to certain men for the purpose of communicating the word of God to the church (Eph 4:11-16).
Apart from the Bible, the Holy Spirit teaches the believer NOTHING. Once the Canon of Scripture was completed, all other forms of communication ceased. The Holy Spirit uses the doctrine stored in your soul which was taken from the Bible, to cause spiritual growth in the believer. And it is the pastors function to study and teach the word of God to his congregation. But it is the Holy Spirit who is the true mentor.
There is NO spiritual growth, there is NO increase in knowledge of God and His plan, apart from studying what has been set down in writing in the Scriptures. The Holy Spirit who indwells the believer makes use of the doctrine in the believers soul which has been taken from the Bible, to cause the spiritual growth of the believer.
The believer who ignores and dismisses the Bible as unimportant will never grow up spiritually. He will be a loser. He will die and go to heaven, but he will lose out on the eternal rewards that God wants him to have.
So Mike you reject the account of the 2 men on the road to Emmaus ?, that it was God who opened their eyes to see and recognize him, that prior to recognizing him, their hearts were burning within them as he spoke to them, which clearly precedes us having our eyes opened and recognizing him.
What about this verse of scripture ?
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ . 2 Cor 4:6
Do you understand from this one verse alone, it is absolutely clear that He(God) made it all happen ?
Do you really believe anyone would deny the good news,in light of what this scripture is saying.
You have not proven in the slightest that God gave us the New Testament for our growth.There is a scripture in Hebrews 1, that tells us, in these last days as spoken to us by His son, not by the bible.
I will ask you again could the believer grow in the grace and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, before Peter wrote those words down in an epistle ?.If so, how ?
Last edited by pcamps; 01-05-2011 at 01:06 PM..
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