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Truth cannot be refuted, it can only be rejected. This is not a debate and was never intended as one. I am simply stating that the Scriptures are absolutely clear on the matter. And you are free to believe or disbelieve whatever you want.
The problem I see with line of argument is that in each every scripture presented, the idea that Jesus is a person of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has to imagined with spirit of human imagination, triune God dogma has to formulated and assumed, and then that which is assumed and formulated has to be added to, and read into, each and every scripture presented so as to have the scripture appear to support what is being imagined and assumed.
Truth cannot be truly refuted, although the trinitarian dogma appears to have refuted the truth, and replaced it with an added on idea that Jesus is a person of the Most High of whom the Bible says he is the son.
The scriptures are absolutely clear on the matter without the need to imagine, assume, add to, and read into those scriptures that the only Most High is a plurality of persons, something that is no where to be found in the Bible.
Stating this to not to be debate the issue would seem to not leave one with much to address as how the scriptures are being misapplied to accommodate the added-triune God dogma. Yes, the Bible truth cannot be truly refuted, but the idea of adding to the Bible and seeing trinity in the scriptures provided can be refuted and the Bible itself shows how what has to imagined and added to the scriptures is out of harmony with the purpose that Christ came to the earth.
As I said, it is only with regard to their plan of salvation for man, that the Persons of the Trinity assume their respective roles. Jesus Christ agreed to come into the world as a man and submit to the will of the Father in order to carry out the plan of salvation. In His humanity, Jesus Christ demonstrated how believers are to live. In subjection to the will of the Father.
In their nature - their essence, and in their Personhood, the Persons of the Godhead are absolutely equal. One God in three Persons.
If Jesus is the Most High, then this would make void Paul's statement that Jesus, having coming in the likeness of sinful flesh, condemned sin the flesh. If Jesus was the Most High in the flesh, then this would mean that rather than condemning sin in the flesh, Jesus actually justified sin in the flesh, proving that for Adam to have obeyed the Most High, Adam would have needed to have been the Most High in the flesh. -- Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22.
Jesus, however, being born a human being, without the condemnation that is by means of Adam's sin (Hebrews 10:5), a human being of flesh (John 1:14; 2 John 1:17), not falling short of the glory of God as other men (Romans 3:23), having the unblemished terrestrial glory of a human being (1 Corinthians 15:40; Hebrews 2:9), corresponding to what Adam was before Adam sinned (Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; 1 Timothy 2:5,6), did indeed condemn sin in the flesh, proving that a human being could obey the Most High in all things, by which he provided the means by which his God could be found to be just and yet the justifier of sinners. -- Romans 3:26.
No where in the Bible is the Son of the Most High (Luke 1:35) ever presented as possessing the distinguishing attribute of being the only Most High.
The Bible always, in relation to Jesus, presents the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as being the God and Father of Jesus, and not once is Jesus ever presented as being the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Compare Exodus 3:14,15; Deuteronomy 18:15-19 with Acts 3:13-26 and Hebrews 1:1,2.
Indeed, one will not find anywhere in what God has revealed by means of His Holy Spirit in the Bible any mention of "God in three persons". Such a concept does indeed have to be assumed beyond what God has revealed in that which is written, added to, and read into, what God has revealed in the Bible. Indeed, such a concept ends up destroying the Biblical basis of redemption through Jesus.
Psalm 102:25-27 and Hebrews 1:10-12 Briefly Examined.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Ask yourself this. Who but God could create the universe and hold it together with the word of His power? And do you not understand that Psalm 102:25-27 speaks of God and that Paul applies Psam 102:25-27 to Jesus Christ?
The above relates to several different scriptures. I will focus here only on Psalm 102:25-27 and Hebrews 1:10-12
And, "You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands. They will perish, but you continue. They all will grow old like a garment does. As a mantle you will roll them up. And they will be changed. But you are the same. Your years will not fail." -- Hebrews 1:10-12
Evidently, the argument is that in Psalm 102:25-27, it is Yahweh who is being spoken to, and that in Hebrews 1:10-12 it is the Son that is being addressed. Using the spirit of human imagination, they would then imagine, assume, add to, and read into the verse their assumed trinitarian dogma, and would have people to believe that this must be one person of Yahweh addressing another person of Yahweh.
First of all, one has to assume that in Psalm 102:25-27, it is Yahweh who is being addressed all the way through. Stop and think: If in Psalm 102:25-27 it is indeed Yahweh who is being addressed, then who is it that is speaking to Yahweh? It would have to be the Psalmist himself. However, the writer of Hebrews indicates that it is the God of Israel who is speaking to the one being spoking to in Psalm 102:25-27. Thus, to say that is is Yahweh being spoken to in Psalm 102:25-27 would, in effect, make the Psalmist be playing the role of Yahweh as applied in this manner to Hebrews 1:10-12. In actuality, there is no reason to believe that the Psalmist was playing the role of the Father [who is Yahweh] speaking to the Son [supposedly, according to trinitarians, who is also Yahweh].
We are plainly informed that in Hebrews 1 that it is "God" who is speaking; "God" in Hebrews 1:1,2 refers, not to three persons, but only to one person, and that one person is being identified as the God of the prophets, hence, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Thus, the scripture in Hebrew is not wrong when it states that God (one person) spoke to his Son when referencing Psalm 102:25-27. Yahweh as alleged to being a person of Yahweh is not being spoken to at all in these verses, but just as the writer of Hebrews truthfully tells us, the Father [Yahweh] speaks to his Son when he stated these matters.
And this is the way we should also read Psalm 102:25-27. If we read the Psalm closely, we can see that the Psalmist is prophetically playing the role of Messiah [not Yahweh] in verse 24: "I said, O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days."
David often did not speak of himself when using the first person, but prophetically of the Messiah (Psalm 16:8-10=Acts 2:25-30; Psalm 22:1=Matthew 27:46; Psalm22:22=Hebrews 2:11,12; Psalm 35:19=John 15:25; Psalm 40:6-8=Hebrews 10:5-10; Psalm 41:9=John 13:18, etc.), so the writer of Hebrews tells us that the Psalmist who wrote Psalm 102 was prophetic of the Messiah to whom Yahweh, the Father, spoke.
From this we can also reasonably conclude that the author of Psalm 102 is also David. Thus Jesus fulfilled this role in his statement: "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me; nevertheless, not what I want, but what you want." -- Matthew 26:39; See also John 12:27.
It should be borne in mind that punctuation is a modern invention, and thus the punctuation we see in our translations is not inspired. The Scriptures were previously without any punctuation. The punctuation as given in many translations is manifestly wrong in several places.
Let us look at Psalm 102-24-27, applying punctuation in accordance to what Paul stated:
For he has looked down from the height of his sanctuary. From heaven, Yahweh saw the earth; To hear the groans of the prisoner; To free those who are condemned to death; That men may declare the name of Yahweh in Zion, And his praise in Jerusalem; When the peoples are gathered together, The kingdoms, to serve Yahweh. [Now Jesus is represented as speaking at the time of his death.] He weakened my strength along the course. He shortened my days. I said, "My God, don't take me away in the midst of my days. Your years are throughout all generations."
[Hear Yahweh's answer of assurance to that heart prayer:] "Of old, you laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will endure. Yes, all of them will wear out like a garment. You will change them like a cloak, and they will be changed. But you are the same. Your years will have no end. The children of your servants will continue. Their seed will be established before you."
A close examination of the scriptures reveal that there is no need to add the trinitarian assumptions on the scriptures, which in reality, make the scriptures appear to be self-contradictory, placing David in the role of the Most High himself as speaking to the Messiah. Are we to think that David is a person of Yahweh? Rather, the most reasonable conclusion is that God, through His Holy Spirit, is showing that David is quoting the Most High Yahweh as speaking prophetically to the Messiah, the Son of Yahweh, David using himself to prophetically represent the Messiah.
The problem I see with line of argument is that in each every scripture presented, the idea that Jesus is a person of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has to imagined with spirit of human imagination, triune God dogma has to formulated and assumed, and then that which is assumed and formulated has to be added to, and read into, each and every scripture presented so as to have the scripture appear to support what is being imagined and assumed.
Truth cannot be truly refuted, although the trinitarian dogma appears to have refuted the truth, and replaced it with an added on idea that Jesus is a person of the Most High of whom the Bible says he is the son.
The scriptures are absolutely clear on the matter without the need to imagine, assume, add to, and read into those scriptures that the only Most High is a plurality of persons, something that is no where to be found in the Bible.
Stating this to not to be debate the issue would seem to not leave one with much to address as how the scriptures are being misapplied to accommodate the added-triune God dogma. Yes, the Bible truth cannot be truly refuted, but the idea of adding to the Bible and seeing trinity in the scriptures provided can be refuted and the Bible itself shows how what has to imagined and added to the scriptures is out of harmony with the purpose that Christ came to the earth.
The trinity is not a manmade doctrine. The trinity is seen in both the Old and New Testaments. Jesus Christ is identified as God, and so is the Holy Spirit.
The trinity is seen in Isa 48:16. The fact that there is more than one Person in the Godhead can be seen in Gen 1:26 and Isa 6:8.
Refer back to post #38. It is Jesus Christ who created the universe. Only God can create the universe.
If Jesus is the Most High, then this would make void Paul's statement that Jesus, having coming in the likeness of sinful flesh, condemned sin the flesh. If Jesus was the Most High in the flesh, then this would mean that rather than condemning sin in the flesh, Jesus actually justified sin in the flesh, proving that for Adam to have obeyed the Most High, Adam would have needed to have been the Most High in the flesh. -- Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22.
That's not true. Simply refer to and understand what Phil 2:5-8 says.
Phil 2:5 'Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6] who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equalty with God a thing to be grasped. 7] but emptied Himself (restricted the independent use of His deity during His first advent), taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likness of men. 8] And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
As Phil 2:5-8 states, Jesus Christ existed as God, and became a member of the human race, and went to the cross where He paid the penalty for man's sins. Not in His deity, but in His humanity.
Quote:
Jesus, however, being born a human being, without the condemnation that is by means of Adam's sin (Hebrews 10:5), a human being of flesh (John 1:14; 2 John 1:17), not falling short of the glory of God as other men (Romans 3:23), having the unblemished terrestrial glory of a human being (1 Corinthians 15:40; Hebrews 2:9), corresponding to what Adam was before Adam sinned (Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; 1 Timothy 2:5,6), did indeed condemn sin in the flesh, proving that a human being could obey the Most High in all things, by which he provided the means by which his God could be found to be just and yet the justifier of sinners. -- Romans 3:26.
No where in the Bible is the Son of the Most High (Luke 1:35) ever presented as possessing the distinguishing attribute of being the only Most High.
The Bible always, in relation to Jesus, presents the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as being the God and Father of Jesus, and not once is Jesus ever presented as being the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Compare Exodus 3:14,15; Deuteronomy 18:15-19 with Acts 3:13-26 and Hebrews 1:1,2.
Indeed, one will not find anywhere in what God has revealed by means of His Holy Spirit in the Bible any mention of "God in three persons". Such a concept does indeed have to be assumed beyond what God has revealed in that which is written, added to, and read into, what God has revealed in the Bible. Indeed, such a concept ends up destroying the Biblical basis of redemption through Jesus.
Jesus Christ is indeed the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Refer to post #41 of my thread https://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...hrist-god.html where the angel of the LORD is shown to be Jesus Christ and then look at Exodus 3 where the angel of the LORD who is Jesus Christ identified Himself as 'I AM WHO I AM'. And the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit both possess all of the attributes of deity. The attributes that make up the essense of God include Sovereignty, Righteousness, Justice, Love, Eternal life, Omniscience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Immutability, and Veracity.
Taking just a couple of those attributes;
Jesus Christ is immutable: Heb 13:8 'Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever.
Jesus Christ is omnipotent: Col 1:16 'For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created by Him and for Him.
The fact that God is three Persons is seen by comparing Scripture with Scripture. But there are passages where God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are mentioned together in some verses.
Matthew 28:19 ''Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,'
2 Cor 13:14 'The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
1 Peter 1:2 'according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure.
Isaiah 40:3 is a prophecy of Jesus Christ and refers to Him as Yah-weh. 'A voice is calling, ''Clear the way for the LORD (Yah-weh) in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God (lê·lō·hê·nū)''. This passage is what is quoted in Luke 3:4-6 concerning Jesus Christ.
Passage after passage which speaks of God in the Old Testament is applied to Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
Let me ask you this. Fundamental Christianity recognizes that Jesus Christ is God. To what group do you belong that you deny the deity of Jesus Christ? Are you a Jehovah's Witness, a Christadelphian, a Unitarian, or some other group?
The above relates to several different scriptures. I will focus here only on Psalm 102:25-27 and Hebrews 1:10-12
And, "You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands. They will perish, but you continue. They all will grow old like a garment does. As a mantle you will roll them up. And they will be changed. But you are the same. Your years will not fail." -- Hebrews 1:10-12
Evidently, the argument is that in Psalm 102:25-27, it is Yahweh who is being spoken to, and that in Hebrews 1:10-12 it is the Son that is being addressed. Using the spirit of human imagination, they would then imagine, assume, add to, and read into the verse their assumed trinitarian dogma, and would have people to believe that this must be one person of Yahweh addressing another person of Yahweh.
First of all, one has to assume that in Psalm 102:25-27, it is Yahweh who is being addressed all the way through. Stop and think: If in Psalm 102:25-27 it is indeed Yahweh who is being addressed, then who is it that is speaking to Yahweh? It would have to be the Psalmist himself. However, the writer of Hebrews indicates that it is the God of Israel who is speaking to the one being spoking to in Psalm 102:25-27. Thus, to say that is is Yahweh being spoken to in Psalm 102:25-27 would, in effect, make the Psalmist be playing the role of Yahweh as applied in this manner to Hebrews 1:10-12. In actuality, there is no reason to believe that the Psalmist was playing the role of the Father [who is Yahweh] speaking to the Son [supposedly, according to trinitarians, who is also Yahweh].
We are plainly informed that in Hebrews 1 that it is "God" who is speaking; "God" in Hebrews 1:1,2 refers, not to three persons, but only to one person, and that one person is being identified as the God of the prophets, hence, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Thus, the scripture in Hebrew is not wrong when it states that God (one person) spoke to his Son when referencing Psalm 102:25-27. Yahweh as alleged to being a person of Yahweh is not being spoken to at all in these verses, but just as the writer of Hebrews truthfully tells us, the Father [Yahweh] speaks to his Son when he stated these matters.
And this is the way we should also read Psalm 102:25-27. If we read the Psalm closely, we can see that the Psalmist is prophetically playing the role of Messiah [not Yahweh] in verse 24: "I said, O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days."
David often did not speak of himself when using the first person, but prophetically of the Messiah (Psalm 16:8-10=Acts 2:25-30; Psalm 22:1=Matthew 27:46; Psalm22:22=Hebrews 2:11,12; Psalm 35:19=John 15:25; Psalm 40:6-8=Hebrews 10:5-10; Psalm 41:9=John 13:18, etc.), so the writer of Hebrews tells us that the Psalmist who wrote Psalm 102 was prophetic of the Messiah to whom Yahweh, the Father, spoke.
From this we can also reasonably conclude that the author of Psalm 102 is also David. Thus Jesus fulfilled this role in his statement: "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me; nevertheless, not what I want, but what you want." -- Matthew 26:39; See also John 12:27.
It should be borne in mind that punctuation is a modern invention, and thus the punctuation we see in our translations is not inspired. The Scriptures were previously without any punctuation. The punctuation as given in many translations is manifestly wrong in several places.
Let us look at Psalm 102-24-27, applying punctuation in accordance to what Paul stated:
For he has looked down from the height of his sanctuary. From heaven, Yahweh saw the earth; To hear the groans of the prisoner; To free those who are condemned to death; That men may declare the name of Yahweh in Zion, And his praise in Jerusalem; When the peoples are gathered together, The kingdoms, to serve Yahweh. [Now Jesus is represented as speaking at the time of his death.] He weakened my strength along the course. He shortened my days. I said, "My God, don't take me away in the midst of my days. Your years are throughout all generations."
[Hear Yahweh's answer of assurance to that heart prayer:] "Of old, you laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will endure. Yes, all of them will wear out like a garment. You will change them like a cloak, and they will be changed. But you are the same. Your years will have no end. The children of your servants will continue. Their seed will be established before you."
A close examination of the scriptures reveal that there is no need to add the trinitarian assumptions on the scriptures, which in reality, make the scriptures appear to be self-contradictory, placing David in the role of the Most High himself as speaking to the Messiah. Are we to think that David is a person of Yahweh? Rather, the most reasonable conclusion is that God, through His Holy Spirit, is showing that David is quoting the Most High Yahweh as speaking prophetically to the Messiah, the Son of Yahweh, David using himself to prophetically represent the Messiah.
In Hebrews 1 Paul is quoting from different passages in the Psalms in which God the Father is referring to Jesus Christ.
The Son of whom the Father is speaking in Hebrews 1 is Himself God the Son, the Second Person of the trinity.
WHO BUT GOD CAN CREATE THE UNIVERSE? The answer is NO ONE.
Col 1:16 reveals clearly that it was Jesus Christ who created the universe. And Hebrews 1:10-12 reveals this as well.
Psalm 102:25-27, clearly refers to God. In Hebrews 1:10-12, Paul quotes Psalm 102:25-27 and applies it to Jesus Christ. His intent is to show that Jesus Christ is God. There is nothing being imagined, assumed, added to, or read into the verse as you claim. It is Paul's direct quote of a passage in Psalms 102:25-27 which he applies to Jesus Christ in Hebrews 1:10-12.
The trinity is not a manmade doctrine. The trinity is seen in both the Old and New Testaments.
The trinity can only been "seen" in either the Old Testament or the New Testament if one uses the spirit of human imagination and assumptions in order to "see" trinity where it does not actually exist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Jesus Christ is identified as God, and so is the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is no where in the Bible ever once identified as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Yes, in a very, very, very few instances the Hebrew/Greek words for God are applied to Jesus, but never in the exclusive sense of the Might of the universe, the source of all might.
Yes, if one wants to use the spirit of human imagination, one can see "trinity" in Isaiah 48:16. Without the aid of that spirit of human imagination, however, the trinity dogma is not there.
"Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there." And now the Lord GOD [YAHWEH] has sent me and his Spirit. — Isaiah 48:16, Revised Standard Version.
We find here mentioned Yahweh and His spirit and that Yahweh and His Spirit sent Isaiah; we do not find one word about the Yahweh being one person of Yahweh, nor of Yahweh's spirit being another person of Yahweh, and actually Jesus has to replace Isaiah, but if it be considered that Yahweh and Yahweh's spirit sent Jesus, this actually means that Jesus is not Yahweh, and certainly it does not mean that Jesus is a person of Yahweh. Yes, one does have use a great deal of imagination so as to "see" three persons of Yawheh in the verse.
The fact that there is more than one Person in the Godhead can be seen in Gen 1:26 and Isa 6:8.
The fact is that there is absolutely nothing at all about Yahweh being more than one person in either verse. Again, the spirit of human imagination is needed to add the triune dogma into what Yahweh said.
If I say to my son, "Let's go and build a house, and we will live in it...", I am not saying that my son is a person of me. Likewise, in those very, very few instances where God says "let us", "we", etc., God is not speaking to another person of Himself, but he is speaking to someone else who is not Himself. Indeed, the default reasoning should be that Yahweh is speaking to someone else who is not Himself, not to grab hold of a lot of imagination so as to assume and add to what was said that Yahweh was speaking to Himself as one person of Yahweh to another perosn of Himself.
God [ELOHIM] said [singular verb], "Let us make [plural] man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Throughout the scriptures, the Bible usually uses singular pronouns and verbs that describe Yahweh as one person. (I, he, singular you, etc., not we, they, them, etc.) Yahweh does not address himself as we, us, our, etc., nor is he doing so in Genesis 1:26, or the other "us" or "we" verses (Genesis 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8) that some trinitarians like to point to as alleged proofs that God is more than one person. Please note that out of the entire Old Testament, these four instances (Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8) are the only instances where it is claimed that Yahweh uses plural pronouns of Himself; all through the Old Testament the pronouns are singular. Nevertheless, if we closely examine those other three verses also, we can see that Yahweh is actually speaking to someone else when He uses the terms "us" or "we".
So who was Yahweh speaking to as recorded in Genesis 1:26? Although there are some hints in the Old Testament, we have to look to the New Testament for the answer to this. John 1:1,2 tells us that the one who became flesh was with God in the beginning that is spoken of there. That "beginning" is not the beginning of the entire universe, as many have assumed, but it is the "beginning" of the "world" (Greek, Kosmos) that God created through the one called "the Word." (John 1:10) All in this world was made through the one called "the Word". Not one thing (pertaining to the world that was made through the Word) was made without the Word. (John 1:3) This one titled "the Word" became flesh, and came into the world that was made through him, and that world did not recognize him. (John 1:1,2,10) Jesus identified himself as that one who was with the "only true God" before the world of mankind was made. (John 17:1,3,5) "God", whom the Word was with, refers to the One whom Jesus addressed as "the only true God", that is, his God and Father. Jesus was with the only true God, and thus John 1:3,10 is really speaking of Jesus as the one through whom "God" made the world of mankind. Therefore, by comparing spiritual revealment with spiritual revealment (1 Corinthians 2:10-12), we can see that the one whom "the only true God" was addressing in Genesis 1:27 is Jesus.
However, someone may object, doesn’t John 1:1 tell us that, not only was the Word with [or toward, in service of] God, but also that the Word was "God"? Doesn’t this prove the trinitarian idea that God is more than one person? No, it doesn't! It should be obvious, by comparing John 1:1,2 and John 17:1-5, that Jesus was with, or in service of, the only true God. Would John then say that Jesus "was" the only true God whom he was with? John twice states that the Word was with God, thus giving emphasis to this thought. The thought of two persons as the only true God is not inherent in the words of John 1:1,2, but the idea has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into what John wrote. One has to imagine and assume that John, in referring to "God" whom the Word was with, does not mean the alleged triune "God", but that it means the first person of the alleged trinity as the Father. We know it is true that "God" whom the Word was with, or in service of, is the God and Father of Jesus, because of Jesus’ words as recorded in John 17:1,3,5. However, the part about the Father being a person of a trinity has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into, what John wrote in John 1:1,2, and Jesus’ reference to the Father as the "only true God" in John 17:3 has to either be ignored, or in some manner be interpreted (again this is often done by imaginative assumptions being added to and read into what Jesus stated) in order make Jesus’ words still mean that Jesus is a person of the only true God. Likewise, the trinitarian has to imagine, assume, add to, and read into what John said that the Word is the alleged second person of the trinity.
So why would John say that the Word was "God", if we are not to imagine and assume he is a person of the only true God? Is there not only one God? Can Jesus be "God" who is not the only true God? And wouldn’t this mean that there is more than one true God? The answer again lies in comparing spiritual revealment with spiritual revealment (1 Corinthians 2:10-12), not by imagining, adding, and reading into the scripture a lot of assumptions that would make Jesus a person of his God. What is the true scriptural answer to why John would refer to Jesus as God?
It is obvious that John is not referring to Jesus as "God" in the same manner in which he speaks of "God" whom Jesus was with. In other words, it should be obvious that Jesus is not "God" whom he was with, and as mentioned before, John emphasized this by repeating it again in John 1:2. If Jesus is "God" who he was with, or in service of, then Jesus is the Father, since Jesus says that he with his Father, but trinitarians deny that Jesus is the Father.
The Greek word for God is usually transliterated as "theos", and forms of this word are used twice in John 1:1. "Theos", in the New Testament, is used to translate form of the Hebrew word that is often transliterated as "EL"; it should be apparent that the Hebrew writers of the New Testament were using THEOS in the same manner, and with same meaning, as the Hebrew writers of the Old Testament.
What many do not realize is that there is a scriptural Hebraic tradition that allows the usage of the words for "God" in a more general sense of might, power, authority, etc. Most translations of the Bible into English as well as other languages recognize this usage. We can use the most popular English translation — the King James Version — to illustrate such usage. This can be demonstrated in such verses where the KJV renders the word for "God" (forms of EL and ELOHIM in the Hebrew) so as to denote strength, power, might, rulership, etc., such as in the following verses: Genesis 23:6 (mighty); Genesis 30:8 (mighty); Genesis 31:29 (power); Deuteronomy 28:32 (might); 1 Samuel 14:15 (great); Nehemiah 5:5 (power); Psalm 8:5 (angels); Psalm 36:6 (great); Psalm 82:1 (mighty); Proverbs 3:27 (power); Psalm 29:1 (mighty); Ezekiel 32:21 (strong); Jonah 3:3 (exceeding). If one were to substitute "false god" in many of these verses, we would have some absurd statements. This proves that these words are used in a sense other than the only true God, or as "false god."
If such Hebraic usage is applied to Jesus (who was with the only true God -- John 17:1,3) in John 1:1, we would have "the Word was mighty," and all makes perfect sense without adding all of the imaginations and assumptions that would have to accompany viewing the scripture through the tint of the trinity doctrine. Jesus was indeed a mighty one with the only true MIGHT before the world of mankind was made. Thus, the scriptural conclusion is that it was this "mighty" one that the only true God addressed in Genesis 1:27, using the term "let us."
Unless, for some reason, your post numbering is different from what appears in my browser, Post #38 is a post by kickinit, in which he state "God is nature." I disagree with this, since "nature" itself is not a sentient being, does not have the ability to do all that is ascribed the Might of universe in the Bible.
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If Jesus came as the Most High the Flesh...
