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I have responded on that thread to the post given.
Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit both possess all of the attributes of deity. The attributes that make up the essense of God include Sovereignty, Righteousness, Justice, Love, Eternal life, Omniscience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Immutability, and Veracity.
Taking just a couple of those attributes;
Yes, Jesus Christ has proven himself to be the same in faithfulness "to him who appointed him" (Hebrews 3:2), and even more so than Moses, since Jesus remained the same in his faithfulness and will always remain the same in this faithfulness, whereas Moses, wavered in his faithfulness. I don't see anything in this, however, that would mean that we need to imagine, assume, add to, and read into the scripture that Jesus is a person of the him who appointed him. The idea that this scriptures is speaking of an attribute that can only belong to the Most High has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into what is stated.
That Jesus Christ is immutable is also seen in Hebrews 1:10 where God the Father says of Jesus Christ, 'And, ''Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of thy hands; 11] They will perish, but Thou remainest; And they all will become old as a garment, 12 ] And as a mantle Thou wilt roll them up; As a garment they wil also be changed. But Thou art the same, And thy years will not come to an end.
Hebrews 1:10-12 contrasts the fact that the heavens will perish with the fact that Jesus Christ remains the same. In like manner, Heb 13:8 speaks of the immutability of Jesus Christ when it says 'Jesus Christ is the same yeterday and today, yes and forever.'
Jesus Christ is omnipotent: Col 1:16 'For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created by Him and for Him.
In Colossians 1, we have "God" identified not as three persons, but as one person. "God" is identified as "God, our Father" (Colossians 1:2), as "God, the Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ."
It is Colossians 1 as shown in 1 Corinthians 8:6, the "one God" is the origin, while God works "through" or "by means of" Jesus.
Thus, in Colossians 1:13,14 it this unipersonal God "who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love; in [Strong's #1722, instrumental "EN", by means of) whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our sins."
The unipersonal God is the source of the the action, while the action is by means of the Son.
In Colossians 1:15, we again find that "God" is presented, not as three persons, but as one person, when we read the son of this unipersonal God is the "image of God".
In Colossians 1:16, we find that Strong's #1722 [en] is again used, referring to Jesus as the instrument of the unipersonal God of Colossians 1:15 in the creation that is being described. That the Greek word is being used as instrumentality can be seen from verse 14 as well as in the use of the word "dia", meaning "through".
For by [Strong's #1722, en, by means of] him were all things created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through [Strong's #1223, dia] him, and to him.
Thus, the Creator is God, while Jesus is the agent through whom God created.
However, is the creation here the material universe? I don't think so. In this connection, let us examine Isaiah 44:24.
24 Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, and he who formed you from the womb: I am Yahweh, who makes all things; who stretches forth the heavens alone; who spreads abroad the earth (who is with me?)
Isaiah 44:24 seems to indicate that Yahweh was alone at the creation of the material universe. If this is so, this would mean that there were no spiritual, heavenly beings that had been created at that time. However, Isaiah 44:24 cannot be referring to the six days of creation that is spoken of in Genesis 1, Exodus 20:11; 31:17; Job 38:4-12; John 1:1,3,10; 17:5, etc.
This is important to understand.
I have provided the scriptural proof on my websites that the beginning, the six days of creation of Genesis 1 and John 1:1,3,10 do not refer to the beginning of material universe as does Isaiah 44:24. Why do I say this? Because, Job 38:4-12 shows that God was not alone at the six days creation. Thus if God was alone at the creation being spoken of in Isaiah 44:24, then the creation being spoken of in that verse is not referring to the same creation in Genesis 1, Exodus 20:11; 31:17, etc., since Job 38:4-12 shows that God was not alone at that creation.
Thus, in harmony with the scriptures, I conclude (as have others) that Jesus was not involved in the creation of the material universe itself, but he was used as the agent, not only in the creation of heavens (sky and the things in it) and the earth (land and things in it) spoken of in Genesis 1, but also in the creation of spiritual unseen dominions in the heavenly realm where God is, and where those spiritual creatures see the face of God. This latter is what is described in Colossians 1:16, that is, living creation having dominion, whether in heaven or earth, visible or invisible, this "all" was created by means of Jesus.
Jesus, however, being the firstborn of God's living creation (Colossians 1:15), is, of course, excepted in "the all" -- ta panta -- that was created by means of Jesus, since Jesus was already brought forth into being before that which created by means of Jesus. 1 Corinthians 15:27 provides an example of such exception.
Further examination of this may be found the studies I have written and are found online:
Now, as to that power which Jesus has, it should be obvious that it is given to him by the Most High. (Matthew 28:19) The power and glory that only belongs to the Most High, however, is not given to Jesus. -- 1 Corinthians 15:27.
The basic meaning of the word "universe" is "everything that exists." As such, this would include the Creator Himself since God does exist. Likewise, the heavenly realm in which God exists would also be part of that "universe", but would we think that such realm was ever created? The scriptures give us reason to conclude, that just as God is uncreated, likewise, the invisible heavens in which he exists was never created.
However, in application, the word "universe" is often used as to mean a subset of the full "universe". I assume that by "universe" the material universe is meant, not actually everything that exists.
Yes, only the God and Father of Jesus did create the material universe (The universe itself would include God and his realm of being, which was never created); the Bible itself, however, never presents Jesus as the creator of the material universe.
No it does not. The universe includes all that has been created. God was not created. He is the creator.
There are three heavens.
1) The first heaven is the band of atmosphere which surrounds the earth. 1 Kings 14:11.
2) The second heaven is the entire stellar universe. Deuternomy 4:19.
3) The third heaven is the throne room of God which is far above all other heavens. 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 and Ephesians 4:10.
Jesus Christ is absolutely declared as having created the material universe. John 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:2 and 10-12 all show that it is Jesus Christ who created the material universe.
In Colossians 1, we have "God" identified not as three persons, but as one person. "God" is identified as "God, our Father" (Colossians 1:2), as "God, the Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ."
It is Colossians 1 as shown in 1 Corinthians 8:6, the "one God" is the origin, while God works "through" or "by means of" Jesus.
Thus, in Colossians 1:13,14 it this unipersonal God "who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love; in [Strong's #1722, instrumental "EN", by means of) whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our sins."
The unipersonal God is the source of the the action, while the action is by means of the Son.
In Colossians 1:15, we again find that "God" is presented, not as three persons, but as one person, when we read the son of this unipersonal God is the "image of God".
In Colossians 1:16, we find that Strong's #1722 [en] is again used, referring to Jesus as the instrument of the unipersonal God of Colossians 1:15 in the creation that is being described. That the Greek word is being used as instrumentality can be seen from verse 14 as well as in the use of the word "dia", meaning "through".
For by [Strong's #1722, en, by means of] him were all things created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through [Strong's #1223, dia] him, and to him.
Thus, the Creator is God, while Jesus is the agent through whom God created.
The creator is indeed God. Both God the Father and God the Son -Jesus Christ took part in it. Heb 1:2 says it is though Jesus that God the Father created the world. God the Father gave the command to create the universe. It was Jesus Christ who actually performed the act of creating the universe as John 1:1-3, Col 1:16-17 and Heb 1:10-12 plainly state. Only God has the creative ability to create the universe.
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However, is the creation here the material universe? I don't think so. In this connection, let us examine Isaiah 44:24.
24 Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, and he who formed you from the womb: I am Yahweh, who makes all things; who stretches forth the heavens alone; who spreads abroad the earth (who is with me?)
Isaiah 44:24 seems to indicate that Yahweh was alone at the creation of the material universe. If this is so, this would mean that there were no spiritual, heavenly beings that had been created at that time. However, Isaiah 44:24 cannot be referring to the six days of creation that is spoken of in Genesis 1, Exodus 20:11; 31:17; Job 38:4-12; John 1:1,3,10; 17:5, etc.
God WAS alone before He created anything. But God is a triune Being. All three Persons of the Godhead are called Yah-weh. When the word Theos is used as for example in Col 1:15 (theou) it refers to the fact that the three Persons of the trinity are ONE in essence. When the word Elohim is used as in Genesis 1:26 it refers to the plurality of Persons in the Godhead. Three to be exact.
Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1-3 both speak of original creation.
Genesis 1:2 and following do not speak of original creation but speak of the restoration of the earth after an unknown period of time which transpired between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2. Sometime after the creation of the earth, Lucifer rebelled which resulted in the earth becoming tohu wabohu - formless and void. This was divine judgment as a result of Lucifer's rebellion. The divine judgment pronounced against the fallen angels (Matt 25:41) included enshouding the earth in darkness (Gen 1:2). (But that is not the topic of this thread.)
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This is important to understand.
I have provided the scriptural proof on my websites that the beginning, the six days of creation of Genesis 1 and John 1:1,3,10 do not refer to the beginning of material universe as does Isaiah 44:24. Why do I say this? Because, Job 38:4-12 shows that God was not alone at the six days creation. Thus if God was alone at the creation being spoken of in Isaiah 44:24, then the creation being spoken of in that verse is not referring to the same creation in Genesis 1, Exodus 20:11; 31:17, etc., since Job 38:4-12 shows that God was not alone at that creation.
The order of beginnings is this:
1) Eternity past:Not really a beginning but is mentioned in contrast with creation which did have a beginning.
2) Angels:Job 38:2 compared with Gen 1:1
3) The heavens and earth:Gen 1:1; John 1:1-3
4) Man:Gen 1:26-27; Matt 19:4
Again, in Genesis chapter one, only Gen 1:1 speaks of original creation. Genesis 1:2 and following refer to the restoration of the earth after it had become formless and void and plunged into darkness as a result of divine judgment on the fallen angels.
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Thus, in harmony with the scriptures, I conclude (as have others) that Jesus was not involved in the creation of the material universe itself, but he was used as the agent, not only in the creation of heavens (sky and the things in it) and the earth (land and things in it) spoken of in Genesis 1, but also in the creation of spiritual unseen dominions in the heavenly realm where God is, and where those spiritual creatures see the face of God. This latter is what is described in Colossians 1:16, that is, living creation having dominion, whether in heaven or earth, visible or invisible, this "all" was created by means of Jesus.
Jesus, however, being the firstborn of God's living creation (Colossians 1:15), is, of course, excepted in "the all" -- ta panta -- that was created by means of Jesus, since Jesus was already brought forth into being before that which created by means of Jesus. 1 Corinthians 15:27 provides an example of such exception.
Further examination of this may be found the studies I have written and are found online:
Now, as to that power which Jesus has, it should be obvious that it is given to him by the Most High. (Matthew 28:19) The power and glory that only belongs to the Most High, however, is not given to Jesus. -- 1 Corinthians 15:27.
Any conclusion arrived at which denies that Jesus Christ was involved in the creation of the material universe is in direct contradiction of the Scriptures which plainly state that Jesus Christ is the actual creator of the material universe.
John 1:1 IN the beginning was the Word (Jesus Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word (Jesus Christ) WAS GOD. He was in the beginning with God. 3]ALL THINGS CAME INTO BEING BY HIM (BY JESUS CHRIST), AND APART FROM HIM NOTHING CAME INTO BEING THAT HAS COME INTO BEING.
Matthew 28:19 does not speak of power (as in omnipotence) and glory. It speaks of the fact that all authority has been given to Jesus. This is in relation to the divine plan of salvation. To Jesus Christ has been given all authority and judgment over creation. This has nothing to do with the fact that as God all three Persons of the trinity are co-equal and co-eternal. Phil 2:6 shows that Jesus had equality with the Father, but humbled Himself by becoming a member of the human race and submitting to the Father's plan of going to the Cross. In His deity, Jesus Christ was equal with the Father even while in His humanity, He submitted to the will of the Father in order to carry out the plan of salvation.
As for Jesus Christ's glory, He says in His High Priestly prayer in John 17:5 ''And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.'
Whenever the Bible speaks of Jesus being given something by the Father, or being sent by the Father, it has to do with the pre-designed plan of God by which salvation is made possible for man. It never has anything to do with the nature of Jesus Christ in contrast with the nature of the Father. For there is no contrast. All three Persons of the Godhead have the exact same essence.
I use the New American Standard, the Kings James, and a Greek/English Interlinear Bible.
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Originally Posted by kids in america_
There are alternate translations out there, you know?
That is why you should use a good translation and use a Greek/English Interlinear Bible. And you should be under the teaching ministry of a well prepared pastor/teacher who knows the original languages and teaches the word of God in an isogogical, categorical and exegetical manner. Studying only on your own will only take you so far, and usually leads to doctrinal error.
The fact that God is three Persons is seen by comparing Scripture with Scripture. But there are passages where God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are mentioned together in some verses.
Matthew 28:19 ''Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,'
I believe Eusebius' earlier quotes of Jesus are correct. If Eusebius' earlier quotes are correct, then Jesus did not state the above as we have received in the extant manuscripts of the New Testament. It should rather read: "Go and make disciples of all nations in my name." This would agree with Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48.
Nevertheless, even in the wording as we have it, we do not have anything about three persons in Yahweh; such still has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into what the verse states. We would have the Father, whom Jesus identified as the "only true God," (John 17:1,3) and we would have the son of God (Matthew 27:54), which expression designates "God", not as three persons, but as one person, and we have the "holy spirit of God" (Ephesians 4:30), which expression also designates "God", not as three persons, but as one person. We find nothing about any alleged three persons of one God.
The word "name" is often used singularly to denote a commonality even when speaking of many individuals, especially when speaking in the sense of reputation or authority: Genesis 5:2; 48:6; Deuteronomy 7:24; 9:14; 12:3; 18:20; Joshua 23:7; Ruth 1:2; Ezra 2:61; Nehemiah 7:63; Psalm 9:5; 109:13; Hosea 32:14; Zephaniah 3:19; Revelation 3:1; see also Psalm 77:20.
Additionally, we have the verse preceding the statement that all authority that Jesus has is given to Jesus, thus indicating that the Son receives his authority from another, a superior being to himself, that is, the Father.
In Acts 10:38, we read that "God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power." There "God" is presented as one person, not three, and it is God who is presented as having anointed Jesus and gave to Jesus his power (dunamis). Isaiah 61:1 identifies who anointed Jesus, that is, "Yahweh", not as three persons, but as one person.
In Ephesians 1:16-22, we read of "God", not as three persons, but as one person, who raised Jesus from the dead, and exalted him above all authority and power (with the evident exception of "God" Himself -- 1 Corinthians 15:27).
Thus, Jesus has no power or authority of himself, but he is dependent on his God for his power, and even his life, as we read that Jesus "lives through the power of God." (2 Corinthians 13:4) In this verse, again, we find "God" revealed, not as three persons, but as one person, and we find that Jesus is not being included as a person of "God", but that he is dependent on "God" for his being alive.
All of this agrees with John 17:1,3, where Jesus refers to his Father as the "only" true Supreme Being, and then excludes himself from being any part of that only true Supreme Being by saying that he was sent forth by that only true Supreme Being. This is further corroborated by John 20:17, where Jesus refers to the Father as the Supreme Being over himself. Nor could this have been a temporary condition, for we find similar statements by Jesus in Revelation 3:12, after his exaltation by the Father. This is also shown in Ephesians 1:17-22, in that the Supreme Being of our Lord Jesus set him" at his own right hand in the heavenly places. Thus Jesus has been given authority and power above all the governments and dominions. — Daniel 7:13,14; Psalm 2:6-8; 110:1,2; Matthew 11:27; John 3:35.
In the Hebrew scriptures, for one to act “in the name” of Yahweh (or another) meant to act in the authority of Yahweh (or whoever it was that a person came “in the name of”). — Deuteronomy 18:5,7,22; 21:5; 25:6; 1 Samuel 17:45; 20:42; 25:9; 2 Samuel 6:18; 1 Kings 18:32; 22:16; 2 Kings 2:24; 1 Chronicles 16:2; 21:19; 2 Chronicles 18:15; 33:18; Ezra 5:1; Psalm 20:5; Psalm 118:10,11,12,26; 129:8; Jeremiah 11:21; 26:16,20; Zechariah 13:3.
However, Matthew 28:19 is not talking about the ones being baptized as coming in the name of, but of their acceptance of the name, authority, cause of, the ones being mentioned, thus, the usage is similar to: Psalm 124:8; Isaiah 50:10; Micah 4:5, except that in Matthew 28:19, it is denoting the acceptance of/belief upon, the "name," similar to the New Testament usage in Matthew 10:41; John 3:18,36; Acts 2:38; 10:48; 1 John 5:13.
Search for '"in the name of"' - WEB - Include Resources - Study Desk (http://tinyurl.com/5cmu39 - broken link)
The word translated as "in" Matthew 28:19 is a from of the Greek word transliterated as "eis" (Strong’s #1519), which usually carries the meaning of "into". This word is also used in John 3:18,36; 4:39 and 1 John 5:13. Given this meaning, those being baptized would be baptized into the name/cause/authority of the Father, of the Son, and of the holy spirit.
However, one of the meanings of the Greek word "eis" (Strong’s #1519), is "for", as denoting "regarding" (Matthew 3:13; 9:4; 10:19; Mark 3:29; 6:11); applying this meaning, one would be baptized ‘for’ the name/cause/authority of the Father, of the Son and of the holy spirit.
The use of name (onoma) here is a common one in the Septuagint and the papyri for power or authority. For the use of ei with onoma in the sense here employed, not meaning into, see Matthew 10:41 ff. (cf. also Matthew 12:41 ).
Whether one views the Greek word "ei" to mean "into", or simply "in", is actually irrelevant, however, as either meaning could apply with basically the same results in application.
Assuming that the words as they appear in the extant Greek NT manuscripts actually express the words of Jesus (I and many others believe Eusebius' earlier quotes to be more correct), the word "name" here represents the cause or authority, not a singular appellation, and offers no thought of one God with one name expressed as three persons. The cause/authority is used in a distributive sense, in the cause or authority of the Father, in the cause or authority of the Son, and in the cause or authority of the holy spirit. It does express a singularity of cause and authority, as the all three are in agreement. There is no indication that this means three persons in one God.
I believe Eusebius' earlier quotes of Jesus are correct. If Eusebius' earlier quotes are correct, then Jesus did not state the above as we have received in the extant manuscripts of the New Testament. It should rather read: "Go and make disciples of all nations in my name." This would agree with Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48.
Nevertheless, even in the wording as we have it, we do not have anything about three persons in Yahweh; such still has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into what the verse states. We would have the Father, whom Jesus identified as the "only true God," (John 17:1,3) and we would have the son of God (Matthew 27:54), which expression designates "God", not as three persons, but as one person, and we have the "holy spirit of God" (Ephesians 4:30), which expression also designates "God", not as three persons, but as one person. We find nothing about any alleged three persons of one God.
The word "name" is often used singularly to denote a commonality even when speaking of many individuals, especially when speaking in the sense of reputation or authority: Genesis 5:2; 48:6; Deuteronomy 7:24; 9:14; 12:3; 18:20; Joshua 23:7; Ruth 1:2; Ezra 2:61; Nehemiah 7:63; Psalm 9:5; 109:13; Hosea 32:14; Zephaniah 3:19; Revelation 3:1; see also Psalm 77:20.
Additionally, we have the verse preceding the statement that all authority that Jesus has is given to Jesus, thus indicating that the Son receives his authority from another, a superior being to himself, that is, the Father.
In Acts 10:38, we read that "God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power." There "God" is presented as one person, not three, and it is God who is presented as having anointed Jesus and gave to Jesus his power (dunamis). Isaiah 61:1 identifies who anointed Jesus, that is, "Yahweh", not as three persons, but as one person.
As the author of the plan of salvation, the First Person of the Trinity is the authority in that plan. In carrying out that plan, the Second Person of the trinity - Jesus Christ, agreed to become a man and subject Himself to the authority of the First Person who is known as the Father because He again, is the author of the plan of salvation.
All three Person's of the Godhead have the same nature and are equal. They assume different roles related to their plan of salvation.
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In Ephesians 1:16-22, we read of "God", not as three persons, but as one person, who raised Jesus from the dead, and exalted him above all authority and power (with the evident exception of "God" Himself -- 1 Corinthians 15:27).
When God is spoken of as being the God of Jesus Christ, it refers to the humanity of Jesus Christ. Not His deity. God the Father is the God of the humanity of Jesus Christ. Not of His deity.
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Thus, Jesus has no power or authority of himself, but he is dependent on his God for his power, and even his life, as we read that Jesus "lives through the power of God." (2 Corinthians 13:4) In this verse, again, we find "God" revealed, not as three persons, but as one person, and we find that Jesus is not being included as a person of "God", but that he is dependent on "God" for his being alive.
2 Cor 13:4 says, 'For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God...'
God the Father raised Jesus (Gal 1:1); Jesus Christ also raised Himself . John 2:19-21 “Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up''. Then the Jews said, It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days? But He was speaking of the temple of His body.' John 10:18 ''No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This comandment I received from My Father.''
This gets repetitive, but again, all three Persons of the trinity are co-equal and co-eternal. In His humanity, Jesus is subject to the will of the Father. He agreed to come into the world as a member of the human race and go to the cross. The humanity of Christ died and was resurrected by the power of God. Jesus was resurrected by the power of the Father and by His own power.
You have to understand that Jesus Christ is in hypostatic union. He is the God-Man. Phil 2:5-8 clearly shows this.
Jesus Christ existed in the form of God. He is God. He is equal with the Father. He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death. He willingly humbled Himself.
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All of this agrees with John 17:1,3, where Jesus refers to his Father as the "only" true Supreme Being, and then excludes himself from being any part of that only true Supreme Being by saying that he was sent forth by that only true Supreme Being. This is further corroborated by John 20:17, where Jesus refers to the Father as the Supreme Being over himself. Nor could this have been a temporary condition, for we find similar statements by Jesus in Revelation 3:12, after his exaltation by the Father. This is also shown in Ephesians 1:17-22, in that the Supreme Being of our Lord Jesus set him" at his own right hand in the heavenly places. Thus Jesus has been given authority and power above all the governments and dominions. — Daniel 7:13,14; Psalm 2:6-8; 110:1,2; Matthew 11:27; John 3:35.
Again, in hypostatic union, Jesus could speak from the standpoint of His deity, or from the standpoint of His humanity, or from the standpoint of His entire Person - His hypostatic union. When Jesus spoke of The Father as God, He was speaking from the standpoint of His humanity.
I would ask you to study the doctrines of the hypostatic union and kenosis.
I use the New American Standard, the Kings James, and a Greek/English Interlinear Bible.
That is why you should use a good translation and use a Greek/English Interlinear Bible. And you should be under the teaching ministry of a well prepared pastor/teacher who knows the original languages and teaches the word of God in an isogogical, categorical and exegetical manner. Studying only on your own will only take you so far, and usually leads to doctrinal error.
Okay there are other translations of Jn. 1:1-3:
Here’s a compliers’ alternative translation: Jn. 1:1-3 In the beginning was the message/divine purpose/reason/wisdom, And the message/divine purpose/reason/wisdom was directed toward God, And the message/divine purpose/reason/wisdom was God. The same message/divine purpose/reason/wisdom was directed toward God in the beginning. Through it, all things were done. And without it nothing was done.
I just want to in good conscience note the various ways John 1:1-3 can be translated in agreement with the Greek Text.
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Creation and Colossians 1:16
