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According to Romans 6:3-6 baptism represents being unified with Christ in his death burial and resurrection . The problem with the thief on the cross is that when Jesus told him he would be with Him in paradise, is that Jesus was still alive . Christ had not died or been buried , so He certainly had not risen yet.
Baptism into Christ had not been put into effect till Pentecost Acts 2 after Christ had risen from the dead and acceded into heaven.
The thief on the cross was under Old Covenant therefor was NOT subject to baptism . He was saved just like anyone else under the Old Covenant .
But besides that when Jesus was on earth he had the authority to forgive sin. Mark 9:2-10
Law of Moses- Old Testament side of Cross
New Testament side of Cross =
death burial resurrection of Christ - Kingdom of Christ - Baptism into Christ Initiated , Acts 2:38
Christ baptism Matthew 28:19 , Acts 2:38
Hebrew 9:16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17becasue a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without the blood.
Galatians 3:26 You are all sons for God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourself with Christ .
Yes, there IS example of people being converted THEN baptized you are absolutely correct just as I am that there are people who are not baptized and they are saved. It is not that I am against baptism, not at all. I simply believe it is the declaration of ones repentence and conversion, it is not the conversion and does not save anyone in and of itself.
Joe , let me show you something here and see if we agree on this .
Matthew 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
Do you understand that Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom of heaven to All the apostles and Peter opened that door on day of Pentecost ? Acts 2:38
Luke 24:46 He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Acts 2:38 Peter replied "Repent and be baptized , ever one of you , in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins . And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is who saves us - Baptism is the time and place where he chose to save us.
baptism is where a repentant believer is calling upon the Lord for salvation through Jesus grace, mercy , love and blood.
Peter first told the people to call on the name of the Lord to be saved, Then he told those who believed to repent and be baptized to be saved. therefore , faith , repentance and baptism must be the real way to call on the name of the Lord for salvation ( Acts chapter 2 is the answer )
My argument is not against baptism, my argument is that it is absurd to believe that jumping in water and having someone say some incantation saves your soul. I believe that baptism IS for the public declaration of repentence in ordinary cases. However, why was Jesus baptized? Was John saving his soul???? What could John have said or done to make the water save Jesus??? nothing.
Believer's baptism is taught in the New Testament as being a symbol or a picture of what has happened in the life of the person who by faith has believed in Jesus Christ and been saved by His grace. It is an illustration of what that has taken place in the new believer's heart which cannot be outwardly observed when a person is saved. Baptism is further a testimony by which the new Christian gives public testimony that they have believed in Jesus Christ and have been born again. Through baptism the new convert is joining, identifying themselves as Christians, and becoming a member of a local New Testament church.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8 9)
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." (Romans 3:24 26)
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Romans 10:9 11).
Saved without baptism?
Romans 10 :10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is unto salvation.
The place of faith ( belief ) and confession is shown to be "unto" righteousness; unto salvation.
Repentance ( changing the mind to serve the Lord ) is "unto " life ( Acts 11:18)
These are going toward being saved; but immersion is "into" Christ, into his death, into death (separation from sins), and it is "into" one body, Christ church ( Romans 6:3,4; 1Cor.12:13; Eph. 1:22,23; 4:4; Col.1:18, 24 )
As the inspired Peter stated in Acts 2:38, the believers are to repent and to be immersed so that they may receive forgiveness of their sins.
Immersion is the point at which the Lord has chosen to put one into the church of Christ. Matthew 16:18; Acts 2:47; Cor. 12:13
Confession is not of one's sins, but as verse nine reveals , it is "the Lord Jesus.
Your sins are not pardoned until one is washed in the blood of the Lamb, in immersion ( Romans 6:3,4; Rev. 1:5 )
Acts 8:35 Philip opened his mouth and, beginning from this same Scripture, he preached to him Jesus. 36 And as they were going along the road, they came to some water, and the eunuch said, Behold, water, what hinders me from being immersed ? 37 And Philip said, If you believe with all your heart you may. And he answered and said. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch, and he immersed him. (ESB)
My argument is not against baptism, my argument is that it is absurd to believe that jumping in water and having someone say some incantation saves your soul. I believe that baptism IS for the public declaration of repentence in ordinary cases. However, why was Jesus baptized? Was John saving his soul???? What could John have said or done to make the water save Jesus??? nothing.
Believer's baptism is taught in the New Testament as being a symbol or a picture of what has happened in the life of the person who by faith has believed in Jesus Christ and been saved by His grace. It is an illustration of what that has taken place in the new believer's heart which cannot be outwardly observed when a person is saved. Baptism is further a testimony by which the new Christian gives public testimony that they have believed in Jesus Christ and have been born again. Through baptism the new convert is joining, identifying themselves as Christians, and becoming a member of a local New Testament church.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8 9)
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." (Romans 3:24 26)
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Romans 10:9 11).
Saved without baptism?
Joe- Show me Chapter and verse where it says baptism is a symbol of or a picture of what is happening in one life when believing in Christ!
show me chapter and verse that baptism is a public testimony where a person believes in Christ.
You my friend are going to look a long time .
For what you profess is not taught in scripture.
Look at Acts 8:26 -40 and tell me if when the eunuch was immersed rather that was a public testimony !
When John baptized Jesus it was to pave the way for us.
Matthew 3:15 Jesus replied, "Let it be so now ; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness. "Then John consented. When Jesus got baptized by John it was INTO the Jordon river and it fulfilled all righteousness.
When we get baptized it is into Christ ! and is for the forgiveness of sins. Acts 2:38 / Romans 6:3-6 / Gal.3:26,27 / Col. 2:12 / 1Peter 3:21
When we get baptized it is into the church of Christ 1Cor.12:13
My argument is not against baptism, my argument is that it is absurd to believe that jumping in water and having someone say some incantation saves your soul. I believe that baptism IS for the public declaration of repentence in ordinary cases. However, why was Jesus baptized? Was John saving his soul???? What could John have said or done to make the water save Jesus??? nothing.
Believer's baptism is taught in the New Testament as being a symbol or a picture of what has happened in the life of the person who by faith has believed in Jesus Christ and been saved by His grace. It is an illustration of what that has taken place in the new believer's heart which cannot be outwardly observed when a person is saved. Baptism is further a testimony by which the new Christian gives public testimony that they have believed in Jesus Christ and have been born again. Through baptism the new convert is joining, identifying themselves as Christians, and becoming a member of a local New Testament church.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8 9)
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." (Romans 3:24 26)
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Romans 10:9 11).
Saved without baptism?
Baptism is important and is something all believers should do, but only Jesus saves.
Joe- Show me Chapter and verse where it says baptism is a symbol of or a picture of what is happening in one life when believing in Christ!
When we get baptized it is into Christ ! and is for the forgiveness of sins. Acts 2:38 / Romans 6:3-6 / Gal.3:26,27 / Col. 2:12 / 1Peter 3:21
When we get baptized it is into the church of Christ 1Cor.12:13
Baptism isn't something we do for God, or for entertainment value, or for cute picture photo shots.
Baptism is something that God does for us...it one of the means of grace that God uses. It saves because of the ressurection of Jesus.
Last edited by twin.spin; 07-08-2011 at 08:52 PM..
Reason: wrong word
Baptism is important and is something all believers should do, but only Jesus saves.
I don't think you could have read the previous posts and still make this statement. No one, absolutely no one has said that Jesus only doesn't save. Of course Jesus is the one that saves.
For one to have life, he must die first......die to sin. Believing, making mental assent that Jesus is the Son of God, is not dying to sin. The only place and time we die to sin is when we are buried with Christ in baptism. This is the place and time when we are made alive in Christ. To live, we must die first. Romans 6, Colossians 2, and Epesians 2 tell us this. Read those chapters for yourself.
And yes Carolina, only Jesus saves. On this we all agree!
DXCC, I will show you chapter and verse after you show me where in the bible there is chapter and verse that specifically prohibits shooting heroin, or marrying someone of the same sex (not that it is an abomination but specifically that same sex marriage being prohibited). You wont find those either however, one can certainly argue that the bible condones neither.
So is the bible a rule book or the word of God? Does God have to specifically point out everything you can and cannot do or does God give you a brain and intelligence?
There is the spirit of the law, and there is the law.
Legalism:
1. Excessive adherence to law or formula.
I think many here miss the point. They are so worried about whether or not all those around them get dunked in water (ie make sure you check all the right blocks!) that they miss the real point. Jesus is the one true savior, it is through him a person is saved.
What then is believer's baptism? What is the purpose of it, since salvation is "by grace through faith" (Ephesians 2:8,9)?
Water baptism is clearly a FIGURE or TYPE of something which already took place in the heart of the believer the moment he/she was saved (1 Pet. 3:21). Water baptism is the ordinance representing the identification of the Christian with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
You are "crucified" (standing upright in water), you are "buried" (immersed into the water), and you are "resurrected into life" (raised out of the water). Water baptism then, is a picture of spiritual baptism as defined in Rom. 6:3-5 and 1 Corinthians 12:13. It is the outward testimony of the believer's inward faith. A sinner is saved the moment he places his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Baptism is a visible testimony to that faith.
This is the SCRIPTURAL basis for water baptism. It PICTURES and PROCLAIMS four important things:
Scriptural baptism PICTURES and PROCLAIMS the believer's death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. "Buried with Him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with Him, through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised Him from the dead." Colossians 2:12
Scriptural baptism PICTURES and PROCLAIMS the death of our old life to sin, and our resurrection to walk in newness of life. "As Christ was raised up from the dead, by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Romans 6:4
Scriptural baptism PICTURES and PROCLAIMS our faith in the Trinity of the Godhead. "Baptizing them in the NAME of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 28:19
Scriptural baptism PICTURES and PROCLAIMS our "putting on" of Christ. "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3:26,27
So then, water baptism is a picture of what transpired when you placed your faith and trust in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ to save you from your sins (Romans 6:3-5). It does not atone for sin. Only the blood of Christ cleanses us from sin (I John 1:7; Colossians 1:14).
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Baptism is important and is something all believers should do, but only Jesus saves.
