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I'll say it again... maybe because you guys have been reading into it wrong all along.
There is no way to read into it wrong. Eternal Torment without any purpose for anything done in a finite lifetime is unconscionable. Torment without any purpose for ANY period of time is unconscionable. Our loving God would not countenance either!!! I cannot believe that any of my brothers and sisters in Christ can do so either in their "heart of hearts." This is just one of the examples where religion enables decent people to accept atrocity in the name of God.
There is no way to read into it wrong. Eternal Torment without any purpose for anything done in a finite lifetime is unconscionable. Torment without any purpose for ANY period of time is unconscionable. Our loving God would not countenance either!!! I cannot believe that any of my brothers and sisters in Christ can do so either in their "heart of hearts." This is just one of the examples where religion enables decent people to accept atrocity in the name of God.
It's been said before that it is a metaphor.... and what exactly does it mean if it were a metaphor? We can't just ignore the scriptures and say that it was manipulated by man to mean such things. Are you not saying that God revealed such things to John in the island at patmos? How are you so sure that the scriptures written about the "eternal torment" in reference should not be there?
I am saying that if it is there, I believe it means something entirely different that not even UR or ET have been explaining correctly. In other words, both sides have a lot of explaining to do. I agree however on the sentiment that hell has been used by religion to manipulate people, or as you said "accept atrocity in the name of God."
I've studied such things before and I know exactly what you are saying and I agree 100%. But I am not so sure about eliminating the entire book of Revelation or merely ignoring such scriptures where eternal torment is referenced, or hell is mentioned.
If find it rather fullfilling of Jesus' own words that we are not to be surprised when people say all sorts of things because we simply repeat the truth.
Jerwade...this isn't about twin.spin. No matter how much people try, it is clear with whom people are really having issues with.
The simple fact is that this compendium would be the truth if "all" that there was to scripture was this.
That would no different than to argue that snow bowl in Flagstaff was all there was to the S.F. Peaks.
Nobody would find it reasonable to believe that by taking 1/2 of a Mozart symphony that that would constitute the full representation of the work. In fact that person who makes such claims would be laughed at or called a fool.
The inconvenient truth is this conpendium is propaganda for people who either are wanton blind or have itching ears.
The fact is that God is both... a God of love and a God of wrath.
Psalm 1:5-6.... a God of love and a God of wrath
Psalm 11:5...... a God of love and a God of wrath
Psalm 37:17 .... a God of love and a God of wrath
Psalm 69:28 .... a God of love and a God of wrath
John 3:36 ...... a God of love and a God of wrath
John 3:16 ...... a God of love and a God of wrath
John 3:18 ...... a God of love and a God of wrath
Mark 16:16 .... a God of love and a God of wrath
1 John 5:10 ... a God of love and a God of wrath
and a whole lot more.
It is not the truth to claim that God is only wrath nor more than to claim God is only love.
It is not the truth to claim "all" when "all" will not be saved.
It's not difficult to understand that which I first received, that's why I was never indoctrinated, even after spending over twenty-five years in the worldly churches of man's religion.
However, if you have been convinced, it will be extremely difficult for you to go back, or to see the truth beyond that which you have been taught by men. Only the Spirit of Truth
will be able to open your eyes.
BTW - The vastness of the peaks beyond that of Snowbowl, do not represent anything other than want it is! And the Ski-Resort is a man-made addition to the San Francisco Peaks.
Yes, that's the standard argument, Richard----God's love is so much different from ours. And yet is it???????
You have to have stood on both sides of the issue as I have, Richard, to truly see how grotesque it is to think that God could truly delight in 95% of His children burning for all eternity, especially under the rubric that His sense of justice demands it, even though His heart breaks for them. Is God truly at the mercy of our free will? Is He really that powerless to save someone when that someone makes a rash, often uninformed decision? Is the God who created the universe and the galaxies really that helpless to bring a lost sheep back into the fold as Jesus so lovingly assured us He would do?
I don't believe our will is more powerful than God's determination to save us. "Who WILL (thelei) have all men to be saved" Not "who desires all men to be saved" as if God says, "Oh, I so desire to save My children, but I cannot because their free will to choose differently completely overpowers My Will to save them".
Many theologians comprehend that God indeed has both justice and love to satisfy, but that they are not equally divided; that love is His greater attribute, which is why Paul said "Now faith, hope and love, but the greatest is love." and which is why we say "God IS love", not "God is Justice". Even man's most innate sense of justice recognizes that the death penalty, the most awful penal punishment society can inflict, must be swift and merciful---that a state of endless suffering cannot and must not be imposed on the condemned. Is our sense of mercy greater than God's???????? Has 1500 years of an ugly doctrine like eternal torment so desensitized people's feelings that a nut like John Hagee can dance around the stage in glee spouting, "Yes, we will look down on the burning bodies of our loved ones in hell and shout with joy, 'It is just, Lord!' What kind of a sick, twisted mentality comes up with this garbage?
Yes, that's the standard argument, Richard----God's love is so much different from ours. And yet is it???????
You have to have stood on both sides of the issue as I have, Richard, to truly see how grotesque it is to think that God could truly delight in 95% of His children burning for all eternity, especially under the rubric that His sense of justice demands it, even though His heart breaks for them. Is God truly at the mercy of our free will? Is He really that powerless to save someone when that someone makes a rash, often uninformed decision? Is the God who created the universe and the galaxies really that helpless to bring a lost sheep back into the fold as Jesus so lovingly assured us He would do?
I don't believe our will is more powerful than God's determination to save us. "Who WILL (thelei) have all men to be saved" Not "who desires all men to be saved" as if God says, "Oh, I so desire to save My children, but I cannot because their free will to choose differently completely overpowers My Will to save them".
Many theologians comprehend that God indeed has both justice and love to satisfy, but that they are not equally divided; that love is His greater attribute, which is why Paul said "Now faith, hope and love, but the greatest is love." and which is why we say "God IS love", not "God is Justice". Even man's most innate sense of justice recognizes that the death penalty, the most awful penal punishment society can inflict, must be swift and merciful---that a state of endless suffering cannot and must not be imposed on the condemned. Is our sense of mercy greater than God's???????? Has 1500 years of an ugly doctrine like eternal torment so desensitized people's feelings that a nut like John Hagee can dance around the stage in glee spouting, "Yes, we will look down on the burning bodies of our loved ones in hell and shout with joy, 'It is just, Lord!' What kind of a sick, twisted mentality comes up with this garbage?
Thelei is greek for 'to want or desire'....will on the other hand is the future conjugation....as in will save...In greek it would be one word, not two as in English...
18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he (church) might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, Colossians 1
the chosen people is the body of Christ... this is what he predestined before the foundations of world. Essentially, that is what God had planned... and that is why Paul says, "let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus.." and again, "I no longer live but Christ lives in me." Christ being the head of the body and we the body... to those that believe.... those are the predestined ones.
Whosoever believeth in him shall have ever lasting life.. anyone can be a whosoever. Anyone can become the elect.
It is the path that one has to take to become the elect was predestined. To accept Jesus Christ as your savior and lord.
KJV:
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
YLT:
Rom 8:29 because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;
Rom 8:30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.
Rom 8:31 What, then, shall we say unto these things? if God is for us, who is against us?
Rom 8:32 He who indeed His own Son did not spare, but for us all did deliver him up, how shall He not also with him the all things grant to us?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay a charge against the choice ones of God? God is He that is declaring righteous,
Doesn't look like he's talking about a path here...Lokks like he is talking about actual real people....
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:16 so, then--not of him who is willing, nor of him who is running, but of God who is doing kindness:
Whosoever believeth in him shall have ever lasting life.. anyone can be a whosoever. Anyone can become the elect.
It is the path that one has to take to become the elect was predestined. To accept Jesus Christ as your savior and lord.
KJV:
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
YLT:
Rom 8:29 because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;
Rom 8:30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.
Rom 8:31 What, then, shall we say unto these things? if God is for us, who is against us?
Rom 8:32 He who indeed His own Son did not spare, but for us all did deliver him up, how shall He not also with him the all things grant to us?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay a charge against the choice ones of God? God is He that is declaring righteous,
Doesn't look like he's talking about a path here...Lokks like he is talking about actual real people....
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:16 so, then--not of him who is willing, nor of him who is running, but of God who is doing kindness:
Not exactly. UR teaches that you don't have to accept Christ as savior in this life to be saved. It's not about hell per se.
Eternal Torment? How about ceasing to exist. Merciful and loving ya gotta admit. No suffering. No pain. But still, you ain't saved without accepting Jesus in this life. Show me one scripture that says you don't have to accept Jesus as savior before you die to be saved.
Hebrews 9:27.
Hey Mr5150 I don't know about everyone but I know that God will save all his children. Where did you get the idea that you do not have to accept Christ as saviour? Of course you do, and in the end everyone will. You and many other semed to think that everything ends when you physically die, like God is not going to resserect everyone and continue his work in them to convert them. Ask yourself is anything too hard for God. If it is not, God will Save all his children because He will, through circumstance and judgements change thier will to his will. We could not do it but it is easy for God, thats why He is God.
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Has 1500 years of an ugly doctrine like eternal torment so desensitized people's feelings that a nut like John Hagee can dance around the stage in glee spouting, "Yes, we will look down on the burning bodies of our loved ones in hell and shout with joy, 'It is just, Lord!' What kind of a sick, twisted mentality comes up with this garbage? 
