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If you don't believe in Universal Reconciliation/Salvation, then what do you do with verses like the following?
Luke 3:6 And all people will see God’s salvation.
1 Tim 2
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Romans 4: 18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him
Isaiah 45:22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 “I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Isaiah 26:9 At night my soul longs for You,
Indeed, my spirit within me seeks You diligently;
For when the earth experiences Your judgments
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
Let me paraphrase. The people learn righteousness when God's judgments come. That is the point. And so everyone will turn back to God, every knee bow, every tongue confess - even to the point of swearing allegiance. And so in Adam all were made sinners, in Christ all will be made righteous. This is because God wills and desires to save all people. And all people will see this salvation. Thus Jesus truly is the savior of the world.
Its good news for all men, just like the angels said in Luke 2:10.
These verses are crystal clear and speak of a universal reconciliation and salvation for all men. All will return back to God. There are many more verses like this.
Now, UR believers have looked at the so-called "hell" verses, and realized they are mistranslated and misinterpreted. That leaves verses like the above telling the truth...
Christ died for all, paid for all sins and offers forgiveness to all, and desires all to be saved. But its people who refuse Christ, refuse to humble themselves to HIs will, repent of their sin or trust in His righteousness, and so they are lost through their own fault, not God's. In the end, all will bow to Christ, but most will bow before HIm and then be cast into hell.
Mt 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. Mt 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Christ died for all, paid for all sins and offers forgiveness to all, and desires all to be saved. But its people who refuse Christ, refuse to humble themselves to HIs will, repent of their sin or trust in His righteousness, and so they are lost through their own fault, not God's. In the end, all will bow to Christ, but most will bow before HIm and then be cast into hell.
What a pitiful view of Almighty God and His love for us. That you can believe the God who is responsible for all that we see in our entire reality would be so petty as to demand acknowledgment is inexplicable to me. Christ corrected the deficiency in our species that prevented us from connection with God. He saved us ALL from separation from God. We had and have NOTHING to do with it. It is finished . . . a done deal! His Holy Spirit is available to us ALL within our consciousness to guide us to the truth God has written in our hearts.We simply need to follow that guidance in "love of God and each other" daily and repent when we don't to be sanctified, period. It is preposterous to think our loving God created an exclusive club for only a few of His children in this vast universe!! Humans are egotistical and desire recognition and acknowledgment . . . NOT God. God needs nothing from us . . . we need and thrive on God's love as we share it with each other.
Christ died for all, paid for all sins and offers forgiveness to all, and desires all to be saved. But its people who refuse Christ, refuse to humble themselves to HIs will, repent of their sin or trust in His righteousness, and so they are lost through their own fault, not God's. In the end, all will bow to Christ, but most will bow before HIm and then be cast into hell.
"Many want their path to be free and clear, but they walk through thorns and thistles; placing a crown on his head." For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which is lost.
Look - you can have your viewpoint... I can have my viewpoint. None of it really matters. None of it. God will do what He is going to do regardless of what you or I think. You can translate and contort verses all you want. It doesn't matter.
The purpose of the believer is to make himself/herself available to be used by God in a) the preaching of the gospel of Christ through your words and your life, and b) the preparing of one's life through sanctification by the Holy Spirit to dwell with God eternally.
I have given up arguing the point because I can't control the outcome and believers need to be more unified. I suggest you do the same. Let it go.
One thing I recently heard a universal reconciliationist (sort of) pastor say is that conditional salvation christians (mostly armenian but many calvinist as well) have a lot more of their ego tied up in their beliefs then they will ever admit to. Sort of a "oh you poor soul, I got it right and you didn't" mentality. I can definitely see that in a lot people who are quick to cry heretic against the URs.
The Pastor was an interesting person. He was very much a bible literalist, but took a lot of things metaphorically. He was skeptical of demon possession (originally), but ended up casting out many. He actually came to his mostly UR perspective after reading all the verses in both the old and new testament, realizing there are irreconcilable contexts, and then realizing that God doesn't see time the same way we do, but all at once or at least through multiple dimentions....I still have haven't wrapped my mind. around everything he said, but it was a very interesting conversation.
Last edited by Jrhockney; 04-22-2012 at 11:01 PM..
Reason: spelling
One thing I recently heard a universal reconciliationist (sort of) pastor say is that conditional salvation christians (mostly armenian but many calvinist as well) have a lot more of their ego tied up in their beliefs then they will ever admit to. Sort of a "oh you poor soul, I got it right and you didn't" mentality. I can definitely see that in a lot people who are quick to cry heretic against the URs.
The Pastor was an interesting person. He was very much a bible literalist, but took a lot of things metaphorically. He was skeptical of demon possession (originally), but ended up casting out many. He actually came to his mostly UR perspective after reading all the verses in both the old and new testament, realizing there are irreconcilable contexts, and then realizing that God doesn't see time the same way we do, but all at once or at least through multiple dimentions....I still have haven't wrapped my mind. around everything he said, but it was a very interesting conversation.
Let me put it this way. There are many who go absolutely berserk if you deny original sin and unending punishment.
It's so funny. There are a couple of regulars here who will provide boatloads of chapter and verse "proving" original sin. On another forum I have a foil who is adamant that original sin is a heresy introduced by Augustine.
It is easy to see the evolution of the unending punishment doctrine if you study the apostolic fathers, the North African schools (culminating with Augustine) and carved in stone by Aquinas. Funny how the Reformers kept so many of the doctrines of the medieval Roman church which they hated so much. I guess its nice to have someplace horrible to place your enemies, someplace where you can spit upon them from your balcony in paradise in response to their pleas for water.
IMHO God is inspiring these examinations of the original message of Jesus and one can hope the return to that message. IMHO those who continue to ling to the hatred of the middle ages are the theological equivalents of dinosaurs, and will eventually follow them into the dustbins of history.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
-Jesus
"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.."
Let me put it this way. There are many who go absolutely berserk if you deny original sin and unending punishment.
It's so funny. There are a couple of regulars here who will provide boatloads of chapter and verse "proving" original sin. On another forum I have a foil who is adamant that original sin is a heresy introduced by Augustine.
It is easy to see the evolution of the unending punishment doctrine if you study the apostolic fathers, the North African schools (culminating with Augustine) and carved in stone by Aquinas. Funny how the Reformers kept so many of the doctrines of the medieval Roman church which they hated so much. I guess its nice to have someplace horrible to place your enemies, someplace where you can spit upon them from your balcony in paradise in response to their pleas for water.
IMHO God is inspiring these examinations of the original message of Jesus and one can hope the return to that message. IMHO those who continue to ling to the hatred of the middle ages are the theological equivalents of dinosaurs, and will eventually follow them into the dustbins of history.
Yes; there is a strange "pleasure" that people get in the thought that their enemies will be punished.
Christ died for all, paid for all sins and offers forgiveness to all, and desires all to be saved. But its people who refuse Christ, refuse to humble themselves to HIs will, repent of their sin or trust in His righteousness, and so they are lost through their own fault, not God's. In the end, all will bow to Christ, but most will bow before HIm and then be cast into hell.
Mt 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. Mt 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Tell me how Matthew 7:14 refutes universalism?
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and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.."
