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No Christ was not wrong . . . those who corrupted His message of love and His Gospel were. They perpetuated the ancient fear, superstitions and ignorance of our ancestors to promote their own agenda of power and control. It is the supreme irony that such satanic corruption using our basest instincts and weaknesses has been considered the mainstream orthodoxy for over 2000 years without anyone questioning its blatant contradiction of Christ's UNAMBIGUOUS example and teaching of "love God and each other." THAT has been the triumph of the anti-Christ that everyone mistakenly thinks is still in our future.
We do not ignore or throw out scripture either. We intelligently interpret it with the "mind of Christ."NO . . . it is the original Gospel of Christ. The mainstream orthodoxy failed to properly DIVIDE the OT scriptures under the veil of ignorance that prophesied about Christ THE Word of God and provided the validations of Him . . . from the NT recordings of His life, words and teachings about the Good News of God's TRUE NATURE and plan for us ALL. FYI . . . Christian Universalists are NOT whatever Universalists you have been indoctrinated to believe are heretics or unbelievers.
What you are is a historical revisionist. You attribute to the apostles the sin of corrupting the very gospel they received firsthand and transmitted via the gospels. According to you, John the Revelator, Paul and all the rest - even Jesus himself - were the ignorant superstitious corrupters who only sought power for themselves.
Not to mention the Talmud's and the Mishna and their discussions of eternal torment.
Thank you for for the encouragement, but i'm a preachers kid and i was forced to read the bible all my young life, and i choose to continue to do so even now. I have been reading the bible all my natural life, for over 30 years and will continue to do so ... But perhaps you should take your own advice? And perhaps you should dig a little deeper and begin to study the scriptures in the languages they were written in, namely the Hebrew and the Koine Greek ...
Well, I've been doing all this for as long as you have, but I'll hit it some more in hopes of finding this doctrine. Since I do do these things, and have done them for a long time, I know that reading them in Hebrew and Greek really do nothing to advance the ideas of Universalism.
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Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
The word Hell for instance does not appear once in the new or old testament in the original manuscripts, and neither does the word everlasting or eternal or damnation.
Everyone knows that the word HELL doesn't appear in the original writings. Old news. I guess it must be related to the fact that these concepts weren't defined because the concepts didn't exist until they were introduced explicitly in the New Testament. It's the same reason that we wouldn't find the word "Skateboard" in the New Testament.
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Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
Hell isn't something anyone needs to worry about, it is a pagan myth interpolated into the christian traditions and into the bible itself by wicked men who entered the church after Rome declared Christianity to be the religion of the state ...
Actually, the Catholic church also preaches the Universalist position in one form. Like William Barclay, they believe that hell is a remedial punishment, but unlike him, they believe that some people can in fact wind up in hell forever. But, they do preach a form of universalism.
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Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
The reason why i refute the false Doctrine of ET is in order to promote the true Gospel of the complete victory of Christ over sin and death in the lives of all people. Also, the fruits of the false doctrine of ET are diabolical, as the dark ages themselves prove. How many men women and children were tortured and burned alive at the hands of the black church in the name of Christ? How much suffering has this false teaching caused in the world?
The sins of the Catholic church have nothing to do with this argument, as they burned and tortured lots of people for lots of reasons. And again, it certainly isn't like the Catholic Church isn't amenable to the ideas of Universalism in at least a limited sense. Blaming it all on the doctrine of eternal torment is a mistake.
What you are is a historical revisionist. You attribute to the apostles the sin of corrupting the very gospel they received firsthand and transmitted via the gospels. According to you, John the Revelator, Paul and all the rest - even Jesus himself - were the ignorant superstitious corrupters who only sought power for themselves.
This is not remotely what we have said. We would never accuse the apostles of corrupting Christ's Gospel. It is another indication that you have not been reading this thread (or do not understand what you have read). The corruptions occurred AFTER the deaths of the apostles and were eventually codified as canon by Constantine.
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Not to mention the Talmud's and the Mishna and their discussions of eternal torment.
You would be surprised if this evil doctrine appeared in the written version of the Jewish oral traditions around the same time it infiltrated into the Christian doctrine (approx 2nd century)??? It says far more about the spiritual development and maturity of the believers that such an Evil doctrine is not only believed but defended as Good and Righteous.
Well, I've been doing all this for as long as you have, but I'll hit it some more in hopes of finding this doctrine. Since I do do these things, and have done them for a long time, I know that reading them in Hebrew and Greek really do nothing to advance the ideas of Universalism.
I'm glad that you're well versed, because that will expedite the discussion if we can refer to certain parts of scripture without having to quote every verse in order to make our points.
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Everyone knows that the word HELL doesn't appear in the original writings. Old news. I guess it must be related to the fact that these concepts weren't defined because the concepts didn't exist until they were introduced explicitly in the New Testament. It's the same reason that we wouldn't find the word "Skateboard" in the New Testament.
The point is once you take the word hell out of the scriptires, you realize that there are actually four different words which were translated as the one word Hell in order to build a deceptive illusion that there is one place of torment with all the characteristics of each of those words.
Hades is the direct translation of the word Sheol, and mean unseen ... It represents the grave in the scriptures, the place where we all go when we die regardless of race custom or creed.
Gehenna was a burning trash pit just outside the walls of Jerusalem where the collected refuse of the city was disposed of and where the bodies of the condemned were literally cast. Christ makes reference to Gehenna in both a literal and allegorical way, as prophetically describing the literal judgment of God when the corpses of the dead Israelite's were cast into the fires of Gehenna at the time of the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, and as a symbol of the fire of Gods judgment in all our lives which is for the purpose of destroying the carnal nature and purifying and refining of the new spiritual nature.
And last comes Tartarus, the prison of the fallen angels according to the pseudepigraphical letter of 2 peter, which seems to take its lead from the early Greek pagan traditions which teach that Tartarus is the prison of fallen demigods.
When properly separated it becomes apparent that the traditional Christian concept of literal fiery hell is altogether due to the mistranslated of various different words and the misinterpretation of 3 very different things.
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Actually, the Catholic church also preaches the Universalist position in one form. Like William Barclay, they believe that hell is a remedial punishment, but unlike him, they believe that some people can in fact wind up in hell forever. But, they do preach a form of universalism.
The Roman Catholic Church as an whole has never taught Universal Salvation, but instead adopted the doctrine of ET.
But then again it is important to note also that there was never an official decree of the church which declared the doctrine of universal salvation to be an heresy, except for the version of Universal Salvation that was taught by Clement and Origin(which included the salvation of the fallen angels and the devil as well) and believed and taught by 4 of the 6 catechetical schools in the first 4 centuries of the christian era, especially in the school at Alexandria which "was the center of learning and intellectual discourse in the ancient Mediterranean world, and was the theological center of gravity of Christianity prior to the rise of the imperial Roman Church."
The sins of the Catholic church have nothing to do with this argument, as they burned and tortured lots of people for lots of reasons. And again, it certainly isn't like the Catholic Church isn't amenable to the ideas of Universalism in at least a limited sense. Blaming it all on the doctrine of eternal torment is a mistake.
The sins of the Roman Catholic Church has everything to do with the doctrine of Eternal Torment. After all it was the catechetical school of Rome in Carthage that was the only Christian seminary of the early church that subscribed to and taught ET.
And the very reason why the inquisition was given so much authority was because the church had adopted the ET doctrine and used it as an excuse to torture and murder millions of people in the name of Christ. After all if God tortures most people for eternity after they die, then humans only emulate God by doing the same here in this life. And if the person being tortured "repents" and "confesses their sin" then they can be killed and go to be with God and the church has saved them for the eternal torture of Hell by temporarily torturing them while they were alive before they burned them alive or killed them in some other unspeakable way.
You can choose to ignore the facts that prove the doctrine of ET to be a demonic doctrine, but that doesn't change them.
What you are is a historical revisionist. You attribute to the apostles the sin of corrupting the very gospel they received firsthand and transmitted via the gospels. According to you, John the Revelator, Paul and all the rest - even Jesus himself - were the ignorant superstitious corrupters who only sought power for themselves.
Not to mention the Talmud's and the Mishna and their discussions of eternal torment.
The non-Christian Greek Jews versus what Jesus taught
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Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
You can choose to ignore the facts that prove the doctrine of ET to be a demonic doctrine, but that doesn't change them.
The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of Jesus's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment.
Here is the proof Chapter 3 - Origin of Endless Punishment
Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment. He carefully avoided that phraseology by which His contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? He never adopted the language of His day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation.
If Jesus had wanted to convey the idea of “eternal” He certainly would have used aidios, which was understood to mean eternal by His contemporaries.
A SNIPPET FROM GOD'S RULES FOR SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION AND MAN'S PLACE IN GOD'S PURPOSE – CHARLES J. PEART
"Sinners do not go away into everlasting punishment. They go into eonian correction. Thank God for the Concordant literal translation, which some in their blindness are condemning. When leaders in the church today condemn something I would be the first one to rush out and get it and examine it for myself. Do not make the mistake of thinking that the majority have the truth It has never been that way and it is not now.
The unscriptural tradition assigning a limit beyond which Christ has no power to save the obstinate sinner has spread universally. It is worldwide. It claims that the will of man can successfully oppose the power and will of God. "God wills all mankind to be saved" (1Tim.2:4). Let us follow our Lord in His denunciation of tradition that makes void the word of God. Let us revel in the full extent of Christ's work and God's victory for all mankind."
Last edited by rodgertutt; 07-17-2011 at 01:30 PM..
Without answering all of your argument, I guess the question is do you believe that God loves all people including his enemies(all those outside of what you understand to be the covenant) as Christ commanded us to do in order to be the children of our father in heaven?
Depends on who we are characterizing "enemies" by...in the context of the synoptic gospels and the NT epistles, it is the apostate covenant people...and they are to be returned with our love, it was Christ's job to deal with them judgmentally...they (followers of Christ) had to "grin and bear it."
Depends on who we are characterizing "enemies" by...in the context of the synoptic gospels and the NT epistles, it is the apostate covenant people...and they are to be returned with our love, it was Christ's job to deal with them judgmentally...they (followers of Christ) had to "grin and bear it."
So you dont believe God loves everyone, but only people under what you interpret to be "the new covenant"? That is where you and i do not see eye to eye. If I understand you correctly then you believe that the love and grace of God are reserved only for a select group of people, while i believe that Gods loves all people regardless of race culture or creed and unconditionally so, and that his grace extends to all people so that eventually Christ will heal everyone of their carnal sinful unbelieving natures and quicken them spiritually so that they will eventually become subject to Christ and will become one with God as God becomes all and in all.
Christ never said "only love your enemies who are under the covenant", that is simply not in the scriptures anywhere. We are to love all people, just as we are to do good to all people and make intercession for all people, especially those of the household of faith, and not only for those who are of the household of faith. Just as God is the savior of all people, especially those who believe, not only of those who believe. As a matter of fact i find the term covenant very few times in the new testament at all, and the idea that all theology should be defined by your interpretation of the new covenant in my opinion is not only not scriptural but also prone to causing divisions among the people and inflating the same elitist sentiment which caused the children of Israel to err, especially the pharisees and the saducees.
Again, Christ was not vague about who he meant when he said love your enemies, he defined what he meant specifically as anyone who hurts you are abuses you ... And he was talking to the very people who later rejected him and had him Crucified, not to Christians. So he could not have been referring only to apostate Israel as their enemies because it was apostate Israel who he was talking to.
All the above is not to say that i do not believe in "the new covenant" which is scriptural, but that is to say i believe that covenant is universal and all inclusive. The interpretation of the new covenant that you speak of i believe to be unscriptural.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 07-17-2011 at 05:03 PM..
So you dont believe God loves everyone but only people under what you interpret to be "the new covenant"? That is where you and i do not see eye to eye. If I understand you correctly then you believe that the love and grace of God are reserved only for a select group of people, while i believe that Gods loves all people regardless of race culture or creed and unconditionally so, and that his grace extends to all people so that eventually Christ will heal everyone of their carnal sinful unbelieving natures and quicken them spiritually so that they will eventually become subject to Christ and will become one with God as God becomes all and in all.
Christ never said "only love your enemies who are under the covenant", that is simply not in the scriptures anywhere. We are to love all people, just as we are to do good to all people and make intercession for all people, especially those of the household of faith, and not only for those who are of the household of faith. Just as God is the savior of all people, especially those who believe, not only of those who believe. As a matter of fact i find the term covenant very few times in the new testament at all, and the idea that all theology should be defined by your interpretation of the new covenant in my opinion is not only not scriptural but also prone to causing divisions among the people and inflating the same elitist sentiment which caused the children of Israel to err, especially the pharisees and the saducees.
Again, Christ was not vague about who he meant when he said love your enemies, he defined what he meant specifically as anyone who hurts you are abuses you ... And he was talking to the very people who later rejected him and had him Crucified, not to Christians. So he could not have been referring only to apostate Israel as their enemies because it was apostate Israel who he was talking to.
All the above is not to say that i do not believe in "the new covenant" which is scriptural, but that is to say i believe that covenant is universal and all inclusive. The interpretation of the new covenant that you speak of i believe to be unscriptural.
I never said God doesn't love everyone. The Bible is covenantal, from front to back, dealing with a people that are under covenant. The only time we see outward evangelization is in the NT, since Israel failed in that regard Isa 42:6. It was a very rare sight when a stranger from elsewhere deiced to cut their foreskin and follow the law...although it did happen from time to time. When we get to the NT, even the evangelization was focused on Israel, the whole house, and when I say that, I mean the Diaspora as well. Now when it comes to proselytization of folks apart from Israel, faith or flesh, then we have that love extending outwards, however, no where, and I mean nowhere, do we see God saying He loves them as well, like He did Israel. Israel, was united under one Shepard, those of the faith, and they are the apple of His eye. However, the mystery, was that by this, proselytization was to occur, and Isaiah's cry can be recompensed and commence again....Just because it doesn't say that God loves them, doesn't mean He doesn't. That is hypothetical, and not Biblical, but it can be inferred, since He gave His Son for Israel, and it was by this sacrifice that the world can again access God through the way it was intended, via loving faith, the meat of the law itself.
Christ never proselytized to anyone that was outside of Israel's blood.
Peter was commissioned to the circumcised - Judah
Paul was commissioned to the uncircumcised. - Israel - the diaspora.
Through this, the world would be blessed. Some scholars call us the "hanger's on", others say, the "birds, beasts, fishes, etc" we aren't Israel, but we are the other tribes apart from the genealogy of Adam through Jacob.
There is very little as to how God feels about them to focus on. However we do know how God is for those who were in the Old Covenant with Him, in Abraham/Moses, and had faith in Him, He loved them dearly. He also loved those who were apostate, since He gave His son to save all of them, if they just believed. He also judged them severely at times...don't think we can claim Christ as our savior and get away with some extra curricular sinning....He loved the whole setup He put together in Adam to Moses and all of it, every nook and cranny pointed to Christ. A peculiar people, unto Himself. Apple of His eye. Christ never said, love those others who are not your enemy, heathen, idolator, liar, thief, etc. These were all folks that have transgressed the covenant with God. Those who did not have the law, could not sin, it was not imputed to them then. God winked at them. Acts 17 What about them/us now? God says He makes a covenant with them Hos 2:18 and that they will lie down safely...He also says because of Israel salvation, the riches of the world is the result Rom 11:12-15
Those abusing them or persecuting them were the Jews...the were the source, this is everywhere in the epistles...they were being called out of the old covenant into the new....there was bound to be some gnashing of teeth The Jews sent Him to His death...just because Rome did it, they washed their hands in it...Apostate Israel was the killer. I understand you don't agree, but the world was very different then as it is now, extremely different, and we have to be careful when we assign these terms to people outside of the fold, cuz they weren't. The mystery was just being revealed....it was very Israel- geocentric until the time of Paul's death. They hadn't even thought of the folks outside...including Peter, Paul, etc till the end.....that's how bad it had gotten...God had a different plan, which He spelled out in the OT..Paul realized it, Peter, still had no clue, but he went along with it, cuz he had faith in Christ.
Blessings...
Last edited by sciotamicks; 07-17-2011 at 06:01 PM..
Ken does God love those who are not in a covenant with him ?.
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The non-Christian Greek Jews versus what Jesus taught
What about them/us now? God says He makes a covenant with them Hos 2:18 and that they will lie down safely...He also says because of Israel salvation, the riches of the world is the result Rom 11:12-15
The Jews sent Him to His death...just because Rome did it, they washed their hands in it...Apostate Israel was the killer. I understand you don't agree, but the world was very different then as it is now, extremely different, and we have to be careful when we assign these terms to people outside of the fold, cuz they weren't. The mystery was just being revealed....it was very Israel- geocentric until the time of Paul's death. They hadn't even thought of the folks outside...including Peter, Paul, etc till the end.....that's how bad it had gotten...God had a different plan, which He spelled out in the OT..Paul realized it, Peter, still had no clue, but he went along with it, cuz he had faith in Christ.