I'm a theistic fatalist. Let's discuss it.
Suggestion: Before you post an objection, read my entire thesis.
I may have already responded to your objection further on.
A collection of random thoughts on the human will.
I have allowed some repetition for emphasis.
THERE IS NO “CHANCE” THAT WE CAN CHOOSE ANYTHING ELSE
Our choices are not made because we had a “chance” to make, or not to make them.
I think of myself as a theistic fatalist. I believe that everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist, or prevent it from happening.
Theologically this is called God’s decretive will, or that which MUST occur, in contrast to God’s preceptive will, which is what His creatures OUGHT to do, e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE, and choosing Jesus Christ.
The kind of fatalism that I reject is the kind that says that things happen no matter what we do.
The truth is that things happen because of what we do, even though what we choose to do is caused by the reasons why we want to choose a certain choice the MOST instead of a different choice at any give point in time.
A few seconds before, we might not have wanted it the MOST.
A few seconds later, we might not have wanted it the MOST.
It may even be true that most of the time we would have wanted to choose something else the MOST.
But at that point in time when we actually make a choice, it's because we want it the MOST, and, at that point in time there is no “chance” that we could have chosen anything else.
As a theistic fatalist I believe that nothing happens by “chance” and that God intends to eventually transform all evil and suffering into something better for everyone that it occurred. That includes the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as kolasis aionion (age during corrective chastisement) that everyone who needs it will experience. Then. when the existence of evil and suffering has served God’s purpose, He will eradicate both of them from our existence.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL by A.P. Adams is good on this subject!
evil.html
As far as salvation is concerned I don’t believe it happens because we are given a “chance.”
As a universalist I believe the Bible teaches that the first fruits of election, the remnant chosen by grace out of each generation, will be saved first. Then all of the non-elect will be saved later.
The following two links are good on this subject.
REDEMPTION IN TWO PARTS
God's Plan Of The Ages; The Purpose Of God In This Age; Redemption In Two Parts; As In Adam - So In Christ; Every Man In His Own Order; All Things In Subjection; God All In All
and
GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that
necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.
The idea that it wouldn't be "right" for God to hold us accountable if we cannot help but choose what we do is an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the fact that we always, without exception, choose what our reasonings tell us is the choice that we prefer the MOST at any given point in time.
The one thing we have in common with robots is causality.
Everything we do is the product of a cause, that cause being the reasons why we prefer one choice the MOST, instead of a different choice.
The fact that you chose it proves that you preferred it at least slightly more than some other choice, or you would not have chosen it.
Your reasons for choosing what you choose are the cause of your making any choice. It is not possible to make a different choice from what your combined reasonings motivate you to prefer the MOST at any point in time.
Nothing God dose is "meaningless." When we look back from the consummation of God's plan for the ages of time, everyone will agree that it was better for everyone that everything happened the way that it did.
It is not even possible to choose any differently (after due deliberation or instantly) than the combined reasonings persuade us to prefer that choice the MOST at that particular moment in time, so much so that we actually do choose it.
In other words, the only "free" will we have is to choose what our combined reasonings persuade us in the choice that we prefer the MOST at that particular point in time. It is not even possible that any other choice could have been made than that one.
It is not even possible to not choose what that reason persuades us is the choice we want to make the MOST at any particular moment in time.
A man devises his ways by using all the info at his disposal.
The end result will be the only "way" he could have devised.
Considering all combined influences in devising that particular way, there simply was no other way that he could have devised at that particular point in time.
We will work out our salvation in response to the combined influences that cause us to work it out in a particular way, the only way that we could possibly work it out. No other way could even be possible.
We are individuals who always, without exception, choose what our combined reasonings persuade us is the choice that we prefer the MOST. The fact that we actually choose it proves that we prefer it the MOST.
No other choice is even possible.
The one thing we have in common with robots is causality.
In the case of humans the cause is the combined reasonings why we prefer one choice the MOST instead of a different one.
It is absolutely impossible to choose what we do not prefer MOST.
The fact that we choose it proves that we preferred it MOST even though there may have been other influences that were almost just as strong. For example, try to believe differently than you do right now. You can't can you? And you won't be able to until/unless stronger influences CAUSE you to do so.
During the act of making a choice, it is not even possible to refuse to choose whatever is having the strongest combination of influences on our mind to choose. The REASONS that we choose "something" over "something else" are the CAUSES of our choice.
If we insist that our will is so "free" that it was not caused to choose, we are saying that there were no reasons that we chose what we chose. That would mean that we had to have chosen randomly (e.g. flipping a coin), i.e. not based on any reason, or combination of reasons.
In either case, a caused choice, or a random choice,
could not have been prevented. The choice that was made was the only choice that could have been made at that point in time.
Our not wanting to reap the consequences becomes part of the reasoning process that causes us to choose to change our ways. The "not wanting" becomes so strong that it is no longer possible to choose to reap the consequences.
The combined influence of internal preference, i.e. finally deciding what we want MOST after due deliberation, or not, plus external persuasive considerations will CAUSE all choices to occur.
The exact same set of influences in the exact same situation (if that were even possible) would always produce the exact same choice in the exact same person at that particular point in time.
That is why it is not even possible to choose differently than we do at any given point in time.
The idea that it is wrong for God to hold us accountable for choices that we cannot help making is an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the fact that we always, without exception, choose what our reasonings tell us is what we want to choose the MOST.
Like I said before, I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.
That is why I call myself a theistic fatalist.
I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a
positive way that
necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.
I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.
I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.
That includes both the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionion" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.
Scripturally or otherwise, it has, and always will be true, that we always, without exception, choose what our combined reasonings and feelings tell us is the choice that we prefer the MOST at any given point in time.
The fact that we choose some certain thing instead of something else, proves that we preferred that certain thing the MOST, even though we may try to claim that we really preferred something else the most.
I agree with Albert Einstein, who said,
“I do not at all believe in human freedom in the [popular] philosophical sense. Everybody acts not only from external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity. A man’s actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that he cannot be responsible [i.e., able to act otherwise], any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motion it undergoes."
Albert Einstein, IDEAS AND OPINIONS, pp.8,39; New York: Crown Publishers, 1954
Instead of God being a "gentleman," I worship a God Who will, sooner or later, successfully influence the will of every fallen creature for their own good, so they will WANT what He wants for them, which does not include sustaining them alive in an inescapable state of everlasting suffering.
I call myself a theistic fatalist because I believe in a God Who has decided that the fate of every fallen creature will be salvation from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
We all have wills, they are just not free.
Then why do we even exist, we might ask? Why do our wills exist? Is God playing chess with Himself? Why does He even need us? Why does He bother letting us think that we’re free?
I think it is in this perceived realm of freedom that we live and learn. God has given us the gift of NOT FEELING HIS CONTROL, and it is this gift that allows us to struggle with decisions, suffer for mistakes, and revel in the overcoming of obstacles.
It is this gift that allows us to turn to Him with tears both of sorrow and of joy.
I think the idea is to bring us in humble adoration to His feet. If it takes a sovereign God to assure that we come to this blessed place, then let’s let Him be sovereign—at the same time reveling in our perceived (but not actual) freedom.
I think that negative experiences work into us the motivation to choose differently in the future.
The apostle Paul's frustration was that, regretfully, he sometimes preferred sinning. The fact that he actually chose sinning demonstrated that, at least momentarily, he prefered it, or he would not have chosen it. It is what we actually do that demonstrates our true preference. We can say we don't prefer it, but our actions speak louder than words.
Sometimes Paul's sinful nature was the strongest influence in his life.
Romans 7:14-25 makes it plain that in no way was Paul’s will “free.”
But the Spirit of God taught Paul through experiences that in those times that “the sin that dwelt within him” (v20) preferred sinning; he could then reach out to Jesus for rescue. This God-taught attitude gradually, and no doubt reflexively, became the strongest influence on Paul’s will in his war with his sinful nature.
I found it helpful what Ray Prinzing said.
“Don’t accept condemnation for not being able to “work out” what God has not yet worked into you.”
Without exception, every person comes to the point of actually choosing what the combination of their reasonings and feelings tell them they prefer the MOST. When that choice has been decided upon, it is impossible to avoid making that particular choice at that split second in time.
In other words, when it comes down to actually making a choice, either after due deliberation, or instantly, we will always choose what we have decided that we prefer the MOST.
Here's the way that James Coram puts it.
"In any certain moment, either we have a given preference (and consequently effect a corresponding choice and action) or we do not. We cannot have a new preference while our old preference still exists. Nor can we make a new choice while we still have an old preference. For the act of choosing is merely the exercise of existing preference.”
The commitment of Jesus to do the will of His Father far outweighed His desire to escape the suffering He saw ahead of Him.
He definitely made the choice that He preferred the MOST.
In fact, that is the only choice that any of us can make, i.e. the choice that we prefer the MOST.
Everyone will ALWAYS choose what they both prefer and desire the MOST.
Albert Einstein put it this way
“I do not at all believe in human freedom in the [popular] philosophical sense. Everybody acts not only from external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity. A man’s actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that he cannot be responsible [i.e., able to act otherwise], any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motion it undergoes."
My own quote.
"After due deliberation we always make the choice that our combined reasonings and feelings (i.e. preferences and desires) convince us is the choice that we prefer and desire the MOST.
The fact that we choose it demonstrates that we prefer and desire it the MOST, or we would have made some other choice instead."
If we choose "the tough thing" it is ONLY because we prefer that choice.
Our reasonings and feelings combine to influence us to prefer that choice the MOST instead of a choice that is not as "tough."
I'll try putting it a different way.
Everything has to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist, or prevent it from happening.
What we prefer MOST, and what we determine is the best course of action from the information available are one and the same thing.
I find it completely relaxing to go through life believing that I am controlled by the strings in God's loving hands!
We do share one thing in common with puppets, and that is causality.
Everything we do is the product of a cause.
And that cause is the combined reasonings and feelings that persuade us to prefer a certain choice the MOST instead of a different choice.
It is not even possible to choose what we do not prefer the MOST.
As a UR, I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a
positive way that
necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.
I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do, e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE, and choosing Jesus Christ.
I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation through what Christ accomplished for everyone by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of his cross.
That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
A collection of random thoughts on the human will
