UR Theology question. (hell, punishment, believe, scriptures)
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You guys say that the word aiōnion means age, not eternity. OK? Then does that mean we don't really get eternal life? I mean that same word is used in John 3:16. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting (aiōnion) life.
Also in John 3:36 (and who knows where else). He who believes in the Son has everlasting (aiōnion) life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him
So if you guys are correct, we really don't get eternal life, but life for an age. So which is it? Eternal or for an age?
You guys say that the word aiōnion means age, not eternity. OK? Then does that mean we don't really get eternal life? I mean that same word is used in John 3:16. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting (aiōnion) life.
Also in John 3:36 (and who knows where else). He who believes in the Son has everlasting (aiōnion) life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him
So if you guys are correct, we really don't get eternal life, but life for an age. So which is it? Eternal or for an age?
Hi Mr5150,
Couple points:
1. This has been discussed and explained in the past - do you really sincerely want to know or are you trying to raise a straw man argument?
2. UR does not say aionion means an age. Within UR camps there is debate on how to best define it. But I believe the simplest meaning is "pertaining to or relating to an age or ages".
Anyway, as I said there are different views on this but this is how I see it.
Just because something is "aionios" does not mean it ends. Nor does it mean it is endless. It simply means it is relating/pertaining to the ages.
For example scripture calls God "aionios". This is akin to saying He is the God of the ages. There is even a Christian song that calls Him the Rock of the ages. Think of it like this. God created the ages, God frames the ages, God is alive in these ages right now, God interacts with the ages - therefore God is pertaining to the ages - that is to say - God isaionios. Does any of this mean that God is not endless? No, of course not, because elsewhere God is described as immortal and never dying.
Now when we speak of aionios punishment, this is simply referring to a punishment that is related to some certain ages. It is not defining the duration of the punishment beyond that. And we know the greek for punishment is kolassin which has implications of "correction" and "pruning", coupled with the scriptures that show God will have all men to be saved, we can see the intent here is corrective punishment to bring about a result.
Eternal life is probably the most misnamed term in all Christianity. As you pointed out it also comes from "aionios", meaning literally "life pertaining to the ages". However in this case scripture perfectly defines for us what aionios life is: read John 17:3 - it is to know God and Jesus.
So taking these meanings, we can see Matt 25 is describing some will receive aionios correction, while others will receive aionios life - they will know God. This is pertaining to the ages.
What happens beyond that? Do all people die and the life end when the ages end? No of course not - because people are also given immortality. Immortality is different than aionios life. Jesus came to defeat death and make all people alive, and indeed He will do that. That will happen after the aionios punishment has ended. So the life will continue on (now for everyone), but the punishment (correction) has served its purpose.
Also in John 3:36 (and who knows where else). He who believes in the Son has everlasting (aiōnion) life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him
Forgot to cover John 3:36. This too has also been explained many times in the past.
It and John 3:18 are the usual verses used to "prove" eternal hell.
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
People will try to say that if you don't believe, then you are not going to "see life", "God's wrath will remain on you", and you are "condemned already". This is true. The problem is that they imply all this to mean "eternal hell that you can never escape from".
However this cannot be the meaning due to the following. Every single one of us has been an unbeliever at one point, and many who have flat out rejected Christ have later come to believe in Christ. Yet the hell-slingers will say - if you don't believe you are condemned already - meaning you are already condemned to hell. Yet if that is true, every single one of us must be condemned to hell. After all we have all been unbelievers, therefore we are already condemned.
So plainly these phrases cannot simply equate to "eternal hell with no escape". What they actually mean is the following: YES, while we don't believe we will feel God's wrath and not see life (not know God ie. John 17:3). This will remain UNTIL we come to believe.
So all this proves is that we are condemned while we are unbelievers and this lasts until we become believers. What this is really talking about is reaping what we sow. What does it mean to "know God" ie. what is aionios life? It is really about following Christ - following His commands - knowing LOVE. So if we do not have this aionios life, knowing God and knowing LOVE, then we are reaping a whole lot of NON-LOVE. This will last until we come to follow His commands - LOVE.
Remember Jesus said: why do you follow me but do not do what I say?
What did He say? Love your neighbor and love your enemy. That is the whole point of it all...
You guys say that the word aiōnion means age, not eternity. OK? Then does that mean we don't really get eternal life? I mean that same word is used in John 3:16. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting (aiōnion) life.
Also in John 3:36 (and who knows where else). He who believes in the Son has everlasting (aiōnion) life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him
So if you guys are correct, we really don't get eternal life, but life for an age. So which is it? Eternal or for an age?
I'm just curious Mr5150 ... Don't you remember the answers that have been given to this question hundreds of times in the past couple of years? Do you really not know what we are going to say by now?
The better question to ask would be "what if the interpretation of UR is wrong and ET is correct without the ability to repent for eternity in hell fire torment?" Can't go back in time. Eternal regret. Pretty sad.
Mr 5150...."eternal life" is aionios zoe...life in the age....always used in context with the "age to come." That's it. Life in the age to come. Same with kolasis. Corrected/Penalized in the age to come.
The better question to ask would be "what if the interpretation of UR is wrong and ET is correct without the ability to repent for eternity in hell fire torment?" Can't go back in time. Eternal regret. Pretty sad.
Yeah, if you're making decisions based on fears of "what if's" then an even bigger question would be "what if" Muslims "are correct without the ability to repent for eternity in hell fire torment" and all Christians are damned for eternity for not making a free will decision to believe in Mohamed, regardless of whether or not they believe in ET, UR, or CI?
Or what if the Hindus are correct and Muslims and Christians spend eternity in hell, or the Zorastreans are correct and the Hindus Muslims and Christians are damned, or the Manicheans are correct and then all Hindus Christians Muslims and Zoroastreans are all going to burn in hell for eternity.
Hell, if the fear of ET is your motivating factor for believing in anything, then you might as well be a Unitarian and believe in and worship all the gods of every religion just in case you go to hell for putting all your religious eggs in a single basket. Just don't have any God before any other God, as it is written "You shall have no other gods before me."
But this line of questioning is really off topic anyway, so ...
You guys say that the word aiōnion means age, not eternity. OK? Then does that mean we don't really get eternal life? I mean that same word is used in John 3:16. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting (aiōnion) life.
Also in John 3:36 (and who knows where else). He who believes in the Son has everlasting (aiōnion) life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him
So if you guys are correct, we really don't get eternal life, but life for an age. So which is it? Eternal or for an age?
I'm just curious Mr5150 ... Don't you remember the answers that have been given to this question hundreds of times in the past couple of years? Do you really not know what we are going to say by now?
Note my join date. I haven't been here a couple of years.
Being as I am a student of Theology, I was just curious why in some cases the word "doesn't mean" eternal (where it conflicts with UR theology), but in other cases it means eternal (when it doesn't conflict with UR theology). That's just how my mind works.
Note my join date. I haven't been here a couple of years.
Being as I am a student of Theology, I was just curious why in some cases the word "doesn't mean" eternal (where it conflicts with UR theology), but in other cases it means eternal (when it doesn't conflict with UR theology). That's just how my mind works.
When it comes to alternate religions, it is often necessary to invent creative translations in order to make things fit together. Your question has been asked before and a satisfactory answer has never been provided.
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