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I for one am glad you started this thread. It's interesting to see the many different views. Too, it has moved me to dig even deeper into God's Word concerning my own faith. So...thanks!
Is there a verse that says faith is the one and only condition for salvation?
Is there a verse that says we are not saved by obedience?
Is there a verse that says we are not saved by repentance?
Is there a verse that says we are not saved by baptism?
Is there a verse that says we are not saved by confessing Jesus publicly?
Which verse says we are saved by faith and faith alone?
Can a man who does no good works be saved?
Katie
This I believe is what this thread is all about,who is saved among the Christian community and who isn't. If you are agreeable to the above that you are not saved unless you haves performed the above, then you are saved. What most of these posts lack is God drawing you to himself by his Spirit,persuading you of who he is, until you cannot help but respond to his call by faith and thus be translated from darkness to his glorious light,where in the believer discovers who God really Is and his changed by continually beholding that Light.
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 cor 3:18
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Okay, you said Christ plants the seed in your heart. He knocks on the door of your heart. Do you have a scripture to support this? Are you saying that this happens apart from the word of God? That it happens miraculously? And to whom does this happen? Everyone?
Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing the word of God. But you are saying it is apart from the word. I don't understand this. Isn't that a contradiction? Is there any place in the scriptures that tell us how we get faith other than by hearing the word of God? If faith comes in any other way, then why do we need preachers? If I've missed some scripture that tells us how we get faith, then please point it out to me.
JAA gave a scripture from 2 Corinthians, but I don't see where it says we get faith miraculously apart from the word.
I know I asked you a lot of questions here. I am sincerely trying to understand. I'm not looking for an "I gotcha."
Katie
Katie,
Here are a couple places talking about the seed of faith.
Luke 8 11“This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.
1 Corinthians 3 5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.
Thanks JAA for providing the verse. Faith, however, does not come to us in any other way than through His word. That is how we get the light of knowledge, by reading and studying His word.
The Bible does not contradict itself ever. If you say we get faith in any other way other than what we are told in Romans 10:17, then you are contradicting what the word says.
By the way, hearing is something we DO.
I'm still waiting for an example of someone, ANYONE, being saved by faith alone. If it's true, where are the examples?
Katie
Hi, Katie
I was providing the verse that pcamps had referred to.
There are many verses that refer to our salvation. But in terms of where our faith comes from, it does come through the hearing of the Word.
There are verses that speak about our faith, and the fruits that should be in evidence, as a result.
But I don't find anything in the Bible that speaks of our works as a reason for our salvation. I believe you have correctly distinguished between the "works of the law", (which the Bible says in no way can save us. You know that, according to Scripture, we would have to keep the whole law perfectly to be saved that way), and the command to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The difference is that one way presupposes our own righteousness (that we can attain unto God through our own efforts). The other relies entirely upon the righteousness of Christ on our behalf.
Obedience to God's command to repent and believe may appear to be a work, but it's the complete antithesis of "working" to become saved. In fact, I believe it's interesting how 2 Thessalonians 1:7,8 puts it:
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There's even a reference here to not "obeying" the gospel, and that those who don't are the ones in trouble with God.
This makes it almost seem more like a work, doesn't it? But when Jesus came and proclaimed His message, most didn't care to hear it. Jesus spoke to dissuade people from relying on their own righteousness (which God tells us in Isaiah 64:6 are as "filthy rags"). Those who brought the gospel (like Paul) continued with this message.
The problem is, as we can see in our own day, that the message goes against man's nature to believe. Man, for the most part, would rather not think of himself as unworthy before God. This way, we can be the judge as to what's acceptable before God. And you can be sure that man will opt on his own behalf to convince himself that he is OK before God.
When Stephen spoke before the high priest and those who had accused him of blasphemy, he recounted their entire history, and how they were constantly in rebellion against God.
Then in Acts 7:51,52, Stephen brought it all full circle:
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
It was all pointing to Christ, but they would hear none of it. Notice in verse 54:
"When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth".
So they were not blessed, as it were, when they heard this. Consequently, in verse 59, we see that they stoned him.
I was providing the verse that pcamps had referred to.
There are many verses that refer to our salvation. But in terms of where our faith comes from, it does come through the hearing of the Word.
There are verses that speak about our faith, and the fruits that should be in evidence, as a result.
But I don't find anything in the Bible that speaks of our works as a reason for our salvation. I believe you have correctly distinguished between the "works of the law", (which the Bible says in no way can save us. You know that, according to Scripture, we would have to keep the whole law perfectly to be saved that way), and the command to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The difference is that one way presupposes our own righteousness (that we can attain unto God through our own efforts). The other relies entirely upon the righteousness of Christ on our behalf.
Obedience to God's command to repent and believe may appear to be a work, but it's the complete antithesis of "working" to become saved. In fact, I believe it's interesting how 2 Thessalonians 1:7,8 puts it:
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There's even a reference here to not "obeying" the gospel, and that those who don't are the ones in trouble with God.
This makes it almost seem more like a work, doesn't it? But when Jesus came and proclaimed His message, most didn't care to hear it. Jesus spoke to dissuade people from relying on their own righteousness (which God tells us in Isaiah 64:6 are as "filthy rags"). Those who brought the gospel (like Paul) continued with this message.
The problem is, as we can see in our own day, that the message goes against man's nature to believe. Man, for the most part, would rather not think of himself as unworthy before God. This way, we can be the judge as to what's acceptable before God. And you can be sure that man will opt on his own behalf to convince himself that he is OK before God.
When Stephen spoke before the high priest and those who had accused him of blasphemy, he recounted their entire history, and how they were constantly in rebellion against God.
Then in Acts 7:51,52, Stephen brought it all full circle:
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
It was all pointing to Christ, but they would hear none of it. Notice in verse 54:
"When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth".
So they were not blessed, as it were, when they heard this. Consequently, in verse 59, we see that they stoned him.
Excellent post, thank you !!
I do believe God is the beginning and the end of our salvation, yet, in the process of God sanctifying our hearts (salvation) we are given a measure of faith to believe. As we act upon it, walking in that faith completely in Him through His word, trusting His righteousness, the fruit of that faith given by His grace through the power of His word when we act upon it, it leads us in the REALITY of who, how, what, God is doing in our life in leading us in His kingdom, His righteousness, our salvation !!
Hope I'm making sense....
So, I believe that faith and works (I like the word action better) do go together because God gives us the faith to believe Him, His word, we act upon it, yet, it is not our works, but God working in us that, WOW, it becomes LIFE, reality to the heart of those who believe.... amen !!
It's kind of like our faith is like a muscle..... if it is not worked, exercised it becomes weak and useless, yet, when it is worked, exercising it, (acting upon it) it becomes strong and stronger in the Lord !!
Last edited by Cyber Munchkin; 10-08-2011 at 07:43 AM..
I for one am glad you started this thread. It's interesting to see the many different views. Too, it has moved me to dig even deeper into God's Word concerning my own faith. So...thanks!
Ditto !!
Thanks, Katie the Lord bless you abundantly !!
I do believe God is the beginning and the end of our salvation, yet, in the process of God sanctifying our hearts (salvation) we are given a measure of faith to believe. As we act upon it, walking in that faith completely in Him through His word, trusting His righteousness, the fruit of that faith given by His grace through the power of His word when we act upon it, it leads us in the REALITY of who, how, what, God is doing in our life in leading us in His kingdom, His righteousness, our salvation !!
Hope I'm making sense....
So, I believe that faith and works (I like the word action better) do go together because God gives us the faith to believe Him, His word, we act upon it, yet, it is not our works, but God working in us that, WOW, it becomes LIFE, reality to the heart of those who believe.... amen !!
It's kind of like our faith is like a muscle..... if it is not worked, exercised it becomes weak and useless, yet, when it is worked, exercising it, (acting upon it) it becomes strong and stronger in the Lord !!
Very nicely stated. It reminds me of what we read in Philippians 2:12,13:
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Very nicely stated. It reminds me of what we read in Philippians 2:12,13:
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Praise God.
Amen..... thank you for the wonderful scripture, our God is faithful and will do as He has promised !!
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But when Jesus came and proclaimed His message, most didn't care to hear it. Jesus spoke to dissuade people from relying on their own righteousness (which God tells us in Isaiah 64:6 are as "filthy rags"). Those who brought the gospel (like Paul) continued with this message.
