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Read through this thread when you first posted it Ilene and you've been on my mind. Just wanted to share this for what it's worth.
Being still... in nature... is when I feel God, the strongest deep within my soul.
Today, just sitting around in the backyard on the grass, with the sun shining down on my head, a leaf landed on my head from the tree above... I grabbed it and just sat there studying the patterns of that leaf, seeing the little tree shape outline within, listening to the birds singing and just being still.
Be still and know that I am God.
I don't need to know all the answers.
For me when I became fully trusting that "God is love", it wasn't so much a knowledge of something that I never knew before... but deep within, it feels as though, I'm actually remembering something I already knew... but maybe just forgot, somehow. Or allowed time to conceal it from me.
Little children have eyes to see.
I think sometimes religion is adult's way of trying to "remember" what they once KNEW but just can't quite get it back. The harder they TRY... the more confused things become.
Be still and know that I am God.
We're all on a journey. Ilene, I think yours is a most interesting one, perhaps because it parallels my own journey in some or even many ways, and I thank you for sharing it with us.
peace friend,
sparrow
Again a beautiful post touching the very core of faith my friend!
Ya know, when I read the Bible, alot of times, my conscience doesn't like what it sees. I see killing, I see destruction, I see weird laws by modern standards, I see what appear to be different laws and consequences carried out over time, and I get glimpses of a very different perspective over time: The Christian God's perspective. The perspective of a creator and owner of this world who dared to put it partially in the hands of very imperfect people, giving them freedom to screw things up all while bringing forth a plan to save them from themselves that interferes with their freedom as little as possible.
This plan, we can't possibly even begin to understand with our limited perspective in a way that will completely satisfy us. We can only use the minds God gave us and try to understand his perspective as the creator and owner of the universe seeing the big picture. He floods the earth (or at least the region, but thats another debate) killing drowning untold numbers, he has the Hebrews virtually exterminate tribes, and he does a host of other things that make our modern consciences freakout, and yet they called it justice back then.
Maybe God just gave us what we wanted while giving us enough freedom to be our primitive selves and yet still bringing about his plan to bring forth the Savior of the world in a way we could still recognize? That's a mouthful right there, but its a possibility I can't dismiss when I think about the big picture of what God is trying to accomplish while letting his creatures be themselves for the most part. Maybe he even "commanded it" because he knew we wanted it at the time and would eventually look at it with shock in modern times, perhaps even to remind us what living in an unreconciled world was like.
As long as there is a way it makes sense to some degree, I will have faith in it (and yes, apologetics and the Holy Spirit helps too). For those of you who cannot rationalize even most of it, yet you still believe out of fear, why not choose another religion or make up your own?Islam has the actual tortures in their hell visually described in detail ya know. Some of them even get to use guns in their fire and brimstone sermons! Though I still have hope that the ones who do are in the minority.
For those of you who want to make up your own religion, faith, or recreate God in your own image with your conscience and plan ways to make the world better without messing with free will, that's your right. Though you might want to go watch the movie Bruce Almighty again lol ;p ..I'll shut up now..
On several occasions twin has talked about the URs belief as "vomit."
Notice it doesn't say, "Without faith in ET it is impossible to please God."
Roger being Roger.... just can't help himself imagining what he wants to hear. I noticed Roger, your wanton misquoting of God's word just doesn't stop there.
BTW Roger, I have compared UR to the "hokey pokey", called Satan's lie, a wolf in sheep's clothing, makes faith optional.
Depends on which translations of the Bible you put your faith in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
makes faith optional
Ilene wrote
"I am and will be eternally grateful to the URist's....if I were to become a Christian again it would be as a UR, that's for certain. NO question."
If Ilene were to put her faith in the Bible again she would no doubt choose these translations.
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s,
J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century Bible, Ferrar Fenton's, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed,
The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).
Last edited by rodgertutt; 10-23-2011 at 02:10 AM..
I have trouble understanding tgnostic as well. I guess he's Catholic though.
Apologies if this comes out wrong or is not related to what tgnostic is thinking.
From a Catholic, or Orthodox I suppose, perspective it sound like your difficulty is with the Bible. Catholics do value the Bible, everything flows from it in a way, but we're not Sola Scriptura. For us Christianity existed before the earliest Bibles we have and the Church, the Councils, and the Tradition matter. We have a good deal of explanation of what we think the Bible means, how to read the Bible, and what we mean. I was hesitant to say this, but as the Catholic view I guess is only being given by tgnostic (who is deemed unclear) I will. I think I would probably be agnostic if I'd been raised in most of the Protestant churches I know. So what he may mean is we have a fairly complex system, clarified over centuries, that explains certain things. So although the Bible is important/central to us a Catholic can find themselves doubting the Bible, but still find elements of Catholicism appealing or be hesitant to leave it over simple Bible interpretation issues.
However this is not a back door way to say "Now go from agnostic to Catholic." (Or "back to Catholic" because for all I know you were Catholic once) Catholicism does believe in a Hell, which I know you can't believe. And its views on gender and sexuality I know are upsetting to some. Still you might find it interesting to read some non-Protestant Christian authors. Whether you ever come back to Christianity or not sometimes it's interesting reading different perspectives. In your case I might lean toward recommending Eastern Orthodox and Ante-Nicene writers. Also maybe the "Desert Mothers." Even if one thinks it's all a bunch of hooey some of them have good life lessons.
Back to the Bible though I know one Dominican, the religious order not the Hispanic ethnic group, told me that the basis of everything is "Love God and Your Neighbor." That the Bible should be read in the way that most fits those two things. It sounded like you felt you couldn't see a way to read the Bible to fit that, but it also sounds like you still believe in some kind of loving God. So I guess I'd hope you find a way, or that we all do, of being more loving to God and Neighbor. As a Catholic I might hope that leads you to some form of Pre-Reformation Christianity, but I think it would presumptuous to go far on that as it's your journey. Mostly I guess I hope this time of re-evaluation is ultimately for the good.
I was taught all Catholics will spend eternity in hell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
I have trouble understanding tgnostic as well. I guess he's Catholic though.
Apologies if this comes out wrong or is not related to what tgnostic is thinking.
From a Catholic, or Orthodox I suppose, perspective it sound like your difficulty is with the Bible. Catholics do value the Bible, everything flows from it in a way, but we're not Sola Scriptura. For us Christianity existed before the earliest Bibles we have and the Church, the Councils, and the Tradition matter. We have a good deal of explanation of what we think the Bible means, how to read the Bible, and what we mean. I was hesitant to say this, but as the Catholic view I guess is only being given by tgnostic (who is deemed unclear) I will. I think I would probably be agnostic if I'd been raised in most of the Protestant churches I know. So what he may mean is we have a fairly complex system, clarified over centuries, that explains certain things. So although the Bible is important/central to us a Catholic can find themselves doubting the Bible, but still find elements of Catholicism appealing or be hesitant to leave it over simple Bible interpretation issues.
However this is not a back door way to say "Now go from agnostic to Catholic." (Or "back to Catholic" because for all I know you were Catholic once) Catholicism does believe in a Hell, which I know you can't believe. And its views on gender and sexuality I know are upsetting to some. Still you might find it interesting to read some non-Protestant Christian authors. Whether you ever come back to Christianity or not sometimes it's interesting reading different perspectives. In your case I might lean toward recommending Eastern Orthodox and Ante-Nicene writers. Also maybe the "Desert Mothers." Even if one thinks it's all a bunch of hooey some of them have good life lessons.
Back to the Bible though I know one Dominican, the religious order not the Hispanic ethnic group, told me that the basis of everything is "Love God and Your Neighbor." That the Bible should be read in the way that most fits those two things. It sounded like you felt you couldn't see a way to read the Bible to fit that, but it also sounds like you still believe in some kind of loving God. So I guess I'd hope you find a way, or that we all do, of being more loving to God and Neighbor. As a Catholic I might hope that leads you to some form of Pre-Reformation Christianity, but I think it would presumptuous to go far on that as it's your journey. Mostly I guess I hope this time of re-evaluation is ultimately for the good.
My parents, and the church I was raised in, taught that all Catholics are going to suffer forever in hell, along with all other non-Christians. Only the people in non-Liberal protestant churches are not going to suffer forever in hell is what they believed. My father was very paranoid about the Catholics he worked with most of his life in Toronto, and also paranoid about the ones he had as neighbors.
I was also taught that Catholics believe that all Protestants are going to suffer forever in hell along with all the other non-Christians in the world.
Both of my parents became URs much later in their lives.
My Dad is still living, and is 99 years old.
Here is what Ilene said
"I am in no way dissing UR, it's because of UR that my vision and idea of God changed from one of a monster to a God of love."
That's my point.
ETer's god is a monster.
Ilene's God is Love.
You know perfectly well I was talking about this ET comment of yours. After all that is the comment which started this conversation. It sounded like you were suggesting she was leaving because of ET to which I replied that she does not believe in ET.
"I'm not at all surprised that so many people become agnostics when confronted with ET Christianity. Especially if they had not been frightened by their parents, and their parent's church (like many of us were) into giving lip-service to belief in an eternal torment god."
Originally Posted by rodgertutt Here is what Ilene said "I am in no way dissing UR, it's because of UR that my vision and idea of God changed from one of a monster to a God of love."
That's my point.
ETer's god is a monster. Ilene's God is Love.
Ilene also wrote
"I am and will be eternally grateful to the URist's....if I were to become a Christian again it would be as a UR, that's for certain. NO question."
If Ilene were to put her faith in the Bible again she would no doubt choose these translations.
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s,
J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century Bible, Ferrar Fenton's, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed,
The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).
Originally Posted by rodgertutt Here is what Ilene said "I am in no way dissing UR, it's because of UR that my vision and idea of God changed from one of a monster to a God of love."
Yes I do understand.
It's just that I don't care what you just said.
This is all I care about.
Here is what Ilene said "I am in no way dissing UR, it's because of UR that my vision and idea of God changed from one of a monster to a God of love."
That's my point.
ETer's god is a monster. Ilene's God is Love.
Ilene also wrote
"I am and will be eternally grateful to the URist's....if I were to become a Christian again it would be as a UR, that's for certain. NO question."
If Ilene were to put her faith in the Bible again she would no doubt choose these translations.
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s,
J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century Bible, Ferrar Fenton's, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed,
The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).
Ilene also wrote
"I believe there is a God and that He is love, but that's about it at this point."
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Though I still have hope that the ones who do are in the minority.
Depends on which translations of the Bible you put your faith in.
So we have two points
