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Before you cast your vote, let me explain. I'm someone who believes Paul was a false Apostle, therefore I don't believe the entire "Bible". What I do believe is I am saved because of God's grace. I believe He sent the promised Messiah to be the sacrifice for our sin, as well as be our teacher, master, and our perfect example of how we are to live. I believe that the Word of Elohim (Yahushua) teaches us that being born again means being set free from sin. I believe that it's part of Elohim's plan to let me share in His divine nature, right here and now, and as I seek Him in prayer I will overcome the flesh, because of the power of the Holy Spirit. No, I don't get credit for this, because that's mercifull and gracious of Him to let me share in His divine nature. Also, I can't claim to be without sin, because a great part of my life was very sinfull, so I fully understand that, as well as it's His promise, His divine nature, His Holy Spirit, that allows me to overcome sin and be set free - ALL BECAUSE OF THE LAMB.
So, I don't believe Paul was an Apostle, and I have good reason. I believe and know it's Elohim who's revealed this to me as well. I won't get into that unless asked, but the question is, will I be saved with only listening and obeying the Messiah? I was water baptized by full submersion for the remission of sins, I counted the cost, took up my stake and followed the Lamb, was baptized into His Holy Spirit, and I immerse myself into His teachings daily to make sure I'm His disciple?
Now please, answer the question. You can put a yes or no and then elaborate with if ands or buts, that's fine. Just answer yes or no. Or I don't know.
Dear Ducky, Yes, Paul is a self professed apostle and prophet, and Yeshua does say that that makes that statement not truthful. John 5:31,"If I alone bear witness of myself, my testimony is not true" This is in concert with Dt 19:15, & Mt 18:16. Paul neatly fits the description of the false prophet of Mt 7, whereas he comes as a "ravenous wolf"(Gen 49:27) in sheeps clothing. One who works miracles and practices lawlessness. For verification simply looked to the fruit of Paul's tree. Not that there aren't a lot of different fruit, 42,000 denominations, for obviously, Paul is all things to all people, but to whether the fruit is good or rotten. (Mt 7:16)
As for being "saved", as taken from Paul in Romans 10:13, a verse from Joel 2:32, Joel 32 refers to the "Day of the Lord" when the nations are gathered into the valley of judgment (Joel 3:2), and God judges them and restores the fortune of Judah and Jerusalem. This happens with respect to the "awesome day of the Lord". Your dead baptized relatives will be in their graves on the "awesome day of the Lord", and not be "saved" with respect to Paul's quoted verse. The only ones saved, on the day of the Lord, are those who "endure to the end".(Mt 24:13), for "no life would have been saved", had "those days not been cut short". The nations are being judged for scattering "My inheritance, Israel" among the nations."(Joel 3:2) The salvation of Joel 2 & 3 is about one surviving the judgment of God on earth, and not of going to "heaven", or whatever form of Dante fiction is prevalent in the "Christian" community. The survivors don't go to heaven, but stay around for the millennium. If your dead baptized relatives didn't receive the "Mark of the beast", then they would be eligible for the first resurrection.(Rev 20:4) After a 1000 years, you have another day of judgment, for which every man is judged according to their deeds. (Rev 20:13) As for "believing Paul", Paul is one of the horns of the beast who was to deceive the world, which has already happened. Putting faith in Paul, is simply idolatry, and Paul is one of the two horns of the beast of Rev 13.
Didn't Paul ' bend his knees' [ meaning in prayer ] to the Father according to Ephesians 3 v 14 ?_______
Isn't Paul giving thanks in prayer to the Father at Ephesians 5 v 20; Colossians 1 v 12; 3 v 17 ?_______
P.S. Didn't John write after Paul wrote ?______Doesn't John reference Paul in his writings ?_____
Then, to deny Paul wouldn't that equate to also denying John ?
Thanks for the passages. Notice that I wrote my message as questions regarding this issue, so I appreciate your help. Having studied those passages, definitely Paul says that we must pray to the Father, which is good, and therefore you have won that argument; however, I fail to see that Paul tells us to love the Father above all things, with all our heart, mind and strength (the most important commandment, according to Jesus). May I ask you to please find where Paul clearly tells us to love the Father as the top commandment? You would think that if Jesus visited Paul and taught him the gospel, Jesus would not have left out the most important commandment that Jesus gave us, which Moses also gave us (Jesus merely quoted the Law).
Also, your references show how confusing it is to be a good "Christian". Who can understand this?
Ephesians 3:14-17
"14 For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith."
So, the Father cannot strengthen us directly? This must be done "through his Spirit"? Why was God able to strengthen people in the Old Testament without the Holy Spirit? Did ALL the prophets of the Old Testament forget to mention that God helped His people through His Spirit? Admittedly, I cannot accuse Paul of inventing the Holy Spirit, but this is very confusing. The God of the Old Testament made much more sense. He created everything by Himself, not through Jesus, and never needed his "Spirit" to strengthen us. There was no confusing Holy Trinity.
Also, from the material you kindly provided:
Colossians 1:21-23
"21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel."
As I always say, Paul, speak for yourself! This is false doctrine! Where does Jesus or the prophets say that we were all alienated from God and were His enemies because of our evil behavior? Jesus spoke of this "wicked generation" but never in those terms. Jesus taught us how to be righteous, and these conditions imposed by Paul are simply made up. And in the Old Testament there were many righteous people (not "alienated from God" and were not His "enemies" in their minds because of their "evil behavior"). In fact, Elijah was taken straight to Heaven, was he not? Plus what Paul adds is typical mind control tactics that I learned when I studied cults. Elijah was "without blemish and free from accusation" despite not having been reconciled "by Christ’s physical body through death" to present him "holy" in God's sight. Paul invented that. And then of course comes a veiled threat to keep people in line: believe blindly in what I'm telling you ("faith") OR ELSE.
Regarding John, I don't have the answers. I just know that Paul confronted Peter, and had the audacity to write about the incident. You have to wonder why a true apostle would want to write about how he scolded another apostle and called him a hypocrite. In that same passage, we find:
Galatians 2:15-16
15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
Not a political vision according to Acts chapter 9
Paul never said he was a Christ, or was Christ, rather according to 1st Cor. 1 v 1; 2nd Cor. 1 v 1; Ephesians 1 v 1; Colossians 1 v 1; 1st Timothy 1 v 1; 2nd Timothy 1 v 1; Titus 1 v 1 he [ Paul ] was an apostle of Christ.
That is not the point- to give to much importance to Paul or the mother of Jesus is a mistake and warps the original message. Just because Paul`s letters cluttered up most of the NT does not mean he is the end all as far as the original words of Christ. Paul can take a far back seat to Jesus. Paul is not important and his interpretations of the words of Christ fail to hit the mark. Just because it is in the bible does not mean it is the ultimate truth. God is NOT bible dependent. Paul could be shifty. He writes a letter to Timothy and at the end inserts that winter is coming on and to bring him his coat. Well.... that is a lot of filler. Paul should have been straight forward and said TIM....Please bring me my coat.....also when Saint Steven was being stoned to death because he shone like the light of God....Paul held the coats of the stoning throng....you can not over look these incidents.
Dear Ducky, Yes, Paul is a self professed apostle and prophet, and Yeshua does say that that makes that statement not truthful. John 5:31,"If I alone bear witness of myself, my testimony is not true" This is in concert with Dt 19:15, & Mt 18:16. Paul neatly fits the description of the false prophet of Mt 7, whereas he comes as a "ravenous wolf"(Gen 49:27) in sheeps clothing. One who works miracles and practices lawlessness. For verification simply looked to the fruit of Paul's tree. Not that there aren't a lot of different fruit, 42,000 denominations, for obviously, Paul is all things to all people, but to whether the fruit is good or rotten. (Mt 7:16)
As for being "saved", as taken from Paul in Romans 10:13, a verse from Joel 2:32, Joel 32 refers to the "Day of the Lord" when the nations are gathered into the valley of judgment (Joel 3:2), and God judges them and restores the fortune of Judah and Jerusalem. This happens with respect to the "awesome day of the Lord". Your dead baptized relatives will be in their graves on the "awesome day of the Lord", and not be "saved" with respect to Paul's quoted verse. The only ones saved, on the day of the Lord, are those who "endure to the end".(Mt 24:13), for "no life would have been saved", had "those days not been cut short". The nations are being judged for scattering "My inheritance, Israel" among the nations."(Joel 3:2) The salvation of Joel 2 & 3 is about one surviving the judgment of God on earth, and not of going to "heaven", or whatever form of Dante fiction is prevalent in the "Christian" community. The survivors don't go to heaven, but stay around for the millennium. If your dead baptized relatives didn't receive the "Mark of the beast", then they would be eligible for the first resurrection.(Rev 20:4) After a 1000 years, you have another day of judgment, for which every man is judged according to their deeds. (Rev 20:13) As for "believing Paul", Paul is one of the horns of the beast who was to deceive the world, which has already happened. Putting faith in Paul, is simply idolatry, and Paul is one of the two horns of the beast of Rev 13.
Thanks for the passages. Notice that I wrote my message as questions regarding this issue, so I appreciate your help. Having studied those passages, definitely Paul says that we must pray to the Father, which is good, and therefore you have won that argument; however, I fail to see that Paul tells us to love the Father above all things, with all our heart, mind and strength (the most important commandment, according to Jesus). May I ask you to please find where Paul clearly tells us to love the Father as the top commandment? You would think that if Jesus visited Paul and taught him the gospel, Jesus would not have left out the most important commandment that Jesus gave us, which Moses also gave us (Jesus merely quoted the Law).
Also, your references show how confusing it is to be a good "Christian". Who can understand this?
Ephesians 3:14-17
"14 For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith."
So, the Father cannot strengthen us directly? This must be done "through his Spirit"? Why was God able to strengthen people in the Old Testament without the Holy Spirit? Did ALL the prophets of the Old Testament forget to mention that God helped His people through His Spirit? Admittedly, I cannot accuse Paul of inventing the Holy Spirit, but this is very confusing. The God of the Old Testament made much more sense. He created everything by Himself, not through Jesus, and never needed his "Spirit" to strengthen us. There was no confusing Holy Trinity.
Also, from the material you kindly provided:
Colossians 1:21-23
"21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel."
As I always say, Paul, speak for yourself! This is false doctrine! Where does Jesus or the prophets say that we were all alienated from God and were His enemies because of our evil behavior? Jesus spoke of this "wicked generation" but never in those terms. Jesus taught us how to be righteous, and these conditions imposed by Paul are simply made up. And in the Old Testament there were many righteous people (not "alienated from God" and were not His "enemies" in their minds because of their "evil behavior"). In fact, Elijah was taken straight to Heaven, was he not? Plus what Paul adds is typical mind control tactics that I learned when I studied cults. Elijah was "without blemish and free from accusation" despite not having been reconciled "by Christ’s physical body through death" to present him "holy" in God's sight. Paul invented that. And then of course comes a veiled threat to keep people in line: believe blindly in what I'm telling you ("faith") OR ELSE.
Regarding John, I don't have the answers. I just know that Paul confronted Peter, and had the audacity to write about the incident. You have to wonder why a true apostle would want to write about how he scolded another apostle and called him a hypocrite. In that same passage, we find:
Galatians 2:15-16
15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
So, the Father cannot strengthen us directly? This must be done "through his Spirit"? Why was God able to strengthen people in the Old Testament without the Holy Spirit?
It was a different dispensation. While the means of salvation has always been the same in all dispensations - faith in the Messiah, the system of spirituality was different. Prior to the beginning of the Church age, there was no universal indwelling of the Holy Spirit among believers. There was a ministry of enduement in which the Holy Spirit empowered certain people for certain tasks, but there was no universal indwelling of the Spirit. That enduement could be removed because of sin which is why David prayed that the Spirit not be taken from Him.
Psalm 51:11 Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
In the church age, the Holy Spirit indwells every believer and empowers the believer to live the spiritual life.
Quote:
Did ALL the prophets of the Old Testament forget to mention that God helped His people through His Spirit? Admittedly, I cannot accuse Paul of inventing the Holy Spirit, but this is very confusing. The God of the Old Testament made much more sense. He created everything by Himself, not through Jesus, and never needed his "Spirit" to strengthen us. There was no confusing Holy Trinity.
Jesus Christ IS God and is the agent of creation. The whole of the Bible, both Old and New Testament is the Word of God. Jesus is clearly stated to have brought all things into existence.
Quote:
Also, from the material you kindly provided:
Colossians 1:21-23
"21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel."
As I always say, Paul, speak for yourself! This is false doctrine! Where does Jesus or the prophets say that we were all alienated from God and were His enemies because of our evil behavior? Jesus spoke of this "wicked generation" but never in those terms. Jesus taught us how to be righteous, and these conditions imposed by Paul are simply made up. And in the Old Testament there were many righteous people (not "alienated from God" and were not His "enemies" in their minds because of their "evil behavior"). In fact, Elijah was taken straight to Heaven, was he not? Plus what Paul adds is typical mind control tactics that I learned when I studied cults. Elijah was "without blemish and free from accusation" despite not having been reconciled "by Christ’s physical body through death" to present him "holy" in God's sight. Paul invented that. And then of course comes a veiled threat to keep people in line: believe blindly in what I'm telling you ("faith") OR ELSE.
No, it is not false doctrine.
Isaiah 64:6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Mark 10:18 [Jesus speaking] And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
Jesus was not denying that He was God, and He was not saying that He Himself was not good. He was actually making a veiled claim to His deity. God alone is truly good and the man who called Jesus good needed to understand the implications of calling Jesus 'good.'
No man is righteous in God's sight on his own merit. It is only when one receives Christ as Savior that he receives the imputation of God's own righteousness by which he is declared to be justified. As it is written,
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
which quotes Gen. 15:6
Genesis 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
Everyone, both before and after Jesus went to the Cross was/is saved on the basis of the work of Christ on the Cross when they believe on Him. Before the Cross, they looked forward to the coming of the Messiah which the animal sacrifices pictured. Jesus said that the Old Testament Scriptures spoke of Him.
John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
Quote:
Regarding John, I don't have the answers. I just know that Paul confronted Peter, and had the audacity to write about the incident. You have to wonder why a true apostle would want to write about how he scolded another apostle and called him a hypocrite.
There's no need to wonder about it at all. Peter was being a hypocrite and causing others to behave in the same hypocritical manner as he was and that behavior needed to be checked because it violated the reality of the unity of Jews and Gentiles in Christ. Paul was defending the Gospel (Gal. 2:11-14).
Quote:
In that same passage, we find:
Galatians 2:15-16
15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
Again, Jesus did not teach this doctrine.
Yes He did. Jesus made it very clear that salvation is not on the basis of works, but on faith in Him.
In John 6:27-29 when Jesus was speaking of working for the food which endures to eternal life, He was asked by the crowd what the works of God were that they might do them. They wrongly believed that there were works that they could do to earn eternal life. Jesus corrected them by telling them that there was only one 'work' they could do. And that 'work' was to believe on Him. Jesus called believing on Him a work because it was something they must do, but it was something for which they could not take any credit. Jesus denied that we are saved by works (plural) of the law, and stated that we are saved through faith alone in Him.
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26] and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
O Ducky, there was nothing heretical in your statement, but I don't know if you
will be saved.. so I said "I don't know"..
what I do know is that all the early Apostles and Disciples considered St. Paul
as great man of God who did more than virtually anyone to evangelize the Gentiles,
and he is in Heaven. There must be some inner reason why you mistakenly choose
to discard Paul. It is not right to do so. There is a reason why you are doing this,
and I'm sure it has nothing at all to do with Christ. Think about that.
Some of Paul's writings I like. Some I think are ridiculous. I don't believe everything found in the scriptures so it is odd to imply that people have to believe in Paul to be "saved". But I suspect the OP thinks "being saved" means something different than what I think it means, so I guess it doesn't matter what I think about the question. Oh what a tangled web religion weaves!
O Ducky, there was nothing heretical in your statement, but I don't know if you
will be saved.. so I said "I don't know"..
what I do know is that all the early Apostles and Disciples considered St. Paul
as great man of God who did more than virtually anyone to evangelize the Gentiles,
and he is in Heaven. There must be some inner reason why you mistakenly choose
to discard Paul. It is not right to do so. There is a reason why you are doing this,
and I'm sure it has nothing at all to do with Christ. Think about that.
Where is Paul considered great?...And it was Petet that G-d chose as Apostle to the Gentiles...Not Paul...
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