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Finn, what you fail to grasp is that Jesus did not speak English, and neither were the scriptures written in English. Jesus did not ever say the words "eternal life".
It is just as Rodger describes, in John 3:16 Jesus promises eonian life (greek: aionios zoe), which quite literally means something of which the horizon/end-point is not in view, but can more generally have the meaning of "pertaining to an age or ages" ie. age-abiding.
Do not confuse this with the idea of immortality - which is also a promise as shown by Paul in 1 Cor 15 - this is why all will be alive truly forever. Not because of eonian life, but because immortality is granted.
It has caused much confusion and travesty due to the way modern Christian tradition has munged the terms "eternal life" and "immortality".
There are many examples where the word eon and its hebrew counter-part olam simply cannot mean literally "eternal" or "forever", yet the meaning is forced there when it is not warranted.
You can study this for yourself if you wish to honestly understand.
Posted by Phazelwood
Quote:
Christian Universalism understands what immortality is and what it means to put it on as scripture defines it. That does not change simply because Jesus was talking about an undetermined period of time.
These are excellent explanations of the UR positon.
I wish I'd said that!
Finn, what you fail to grasp is that Jesus did not speak English, and neither were the scriptures written in English. Jesus did not ever say the words "eternal life".
It is just as Rodger describes, in John 3:16 Jesus promises eonian life (greek: aionios zoe), which quite literally means something of which the horizon/end-point is not in view, but can more generally have the meaning of "pertaining to an age or ages" ie. age-abiding.
Do not confuse this with the idea of immortality - which is also a promise as shown by Paul in 1 Cor 15 - this is why all will be alive truly forever. Not because of eonian life, but because immortality is granted.
It has caused much confusion and travesty due to the way modern Christian tradition has munged the terms "eternal life" and "immortality".
There are many examples where the word eon and its hebrew counter-part olam simply cannot mean literally "eternal" or "forever", yet the meaning is forced there when it is not warranted.
You can study this for yourself if you wish to honestly understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood
You should realize two things.
Christian Universalism understands what immortality is and what it means to put it on as scripture defines it. That does not change simply because Jesus was talking about an undetermined period of time.
Even with your view everyone is promised eternal life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt
These are excellent explanations of the UR position.
I wish I'd said that!
I agree Rodger . . . and you have said many equally wonderful things about Christian Universalism.
It's time to listen to "Brian's Song again from the OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
I agree Rodger . . . and you have said many equally wonderful things about Christian Universalism.
It's time to listen to "Brian's Song" again from the OP.
Brian wrote
"Let's take UR one step further.
pcamps has been very scripturally bringing us back to the fact that God is not holding men's sins against them. Can you believe it? Can God just forgive people freely? Is that fair? Is that "just??"
Well, it's not only fair. It's GRACE!!
Now, from this link here: Sovereignty Scriptures
I was truly blessed this morning.
Here's what I feel the LORD was showing me this morning, verse-by-verse:
Mt. 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Now many refers to the whole world. Just as the "many" in Romans 5 refers to all mankind, so here too, many are indeed called by God, in God's time. However, only a few are chosen in this life (such as Paul the apostle) to declare His Grace and His Glory to the world.
Jn. 12:39-40 For this cause they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, "He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart; lest they see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted, and I heal them."
When God makes the sinner to hear His word, He causes the man to be converted and healed. Without this intervention of God directly in a person's life, there can be no healing and conversion. God does it all, in His time. When one person is "saved," that's God at work. If a person is "not saved," it's simply that God is not yet doing work in that person.
Acts 3:26 ...and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.
Again, it is GOD who TURNS us AWAY from our sin. He does it in His time. It is an active work on His part, and until He works in the individual, that person can do nothing.
Rom. 5:20 And the law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.
See that? God added the Law on purpose, in order to increase the transgression. Do you believe that God is for us? If you do, then you must know by now that God increased transgression, in order that His grace would supercede it. It's all GOD's doing!! Praise God!
Let's continue:
Rom. 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Here again we see clearly, that justification is God's gift, brought in by His Own Hand, and has been extended to ALL mankind. That includes Hitler and Bundy, like it or not!
Rom. 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor, and another for dishonor?
Rom. 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Rom. 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Yes, God made vessels of wrath. But He doesn't show His wrath on them, but brings them unto salvation by grace, according to His timing.
11:32 For God has shut up all men in disobedience that He may show mercy to all.
Here is God's final plan. He has made all people sinners, in order to have mercy upon them all! His grace is what saves us, not any works we have done. It is G-R-A-C-E which He bestows upon each sinner, one-by-one, reviving each one as He sees fit!
Grace means that man has no part in it whatsoever. Grace means that, one day, God comes to you and draws you unto Him, giving you conversion and healing. It is by grace that we are saved. As He called Saul, so He will do to each one, in His own time.
Praise God!!
I hope someone out there can hear this!!
Blessings
Brian
We hear you Brian.
Keep singing brother!
I'm turning up the volume for you.
It's time to listen to "Brian's Song" again from the OP.
Brian wrote
"Let's take UR one step further.
pcamps has been very scripturally bringing us back to the fact that God is not holding men's sins against them. Can you believe it? Can God just forgive people freely? Is that fair? Is that "just??"
Well, it's not only fair. It's GRACE!!
Now, from this link here: Sovereignty Scriptures
I was truly blessed this morning.
Here's what I feel the LORD was showing me this morning, verse-by-verse:
Mt. 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Now many refers to the whole world. Just as the "many" in Romans 5 refers to all mankind, so here too, many are indeed called by God, in God's time. However, only a few are chosen in this life (such as Paul the apostle) to declare His Grace and His Glory to the world.
Jn. 12:39-40 For this cause they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, "He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart; lest they see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted, and I heal them."
When God makes the sinner to hear His word, He causes the man to be converted and healed. Without this intervention of God directly in a person's life, there can be no healing and conversion. God does it all, in His time. When one person is "saved," that's God at work. If a person is "not saved," it's simply that God is not yet doing work in that person.
Acts 3:26 ...and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.
Again, it is GOD who TURNS us AWAY from our sin. He does it in His time. It is an active work on His part, and until He works in the individual, that person can do nothing.
Rom. 5:20 And the law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.
See that? God added the Law on purpose, in order to increase the transgression. Do you believe that God is for us? If you do, then you must know by now that God increased transgression, in order that His grace would supercede it. It's all GOD's doing!! Praise God!
Let's continue:
Rom. 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Here again we see clearly, that justification is God's gift, brought in by His Own Hand, and has been extended to ALL mankind. That includes Hitler and Bundy, like it or not!
Rom. 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor, and another for dishonor?
Rom. 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Rom. 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Yes, God made vessels of wrath. But He doesn't show His wrath on them, but brings them unto salvation by grace, according to His timing.
11:32 For God has shut up all men in disobedience that He may show mercy to all.
Here is God's final plan. He has made all people sinners, in order to have mercy upon them all! His grace is what saves us, not any works we have done. It is G-R-A-C-E which He bestows upon each sinner, one-by-one, reviving each one as He sees fit!
Grace means that man has no part in it whatsoever. Grace means that, one day, God comes to you and draws you unto Him, giving you conversion and healing. It is by grace that we are saved. As He called Saul, so He will do to each one, in His own time.
Praise God!!
I hope someone out there can hear this!!
Blessings
Brian
We hear you Brian.
Keep singing brother!
I'm turning up the volume for you.
Many people say that they are following Jesus. But how can they be sure?
Well, the NT epistles are full of exortations to the churches to follow. But Paul and the others didn't write to people telling them to follow Jesus the man. They told them to follow:
- faith (Rom. 9:30)
- things that make for peace (Rom. 14.19)
- Paul (1 Cor. 4.16, 11.1; Phil 3.17) Yes, Paul was telling people to follow him!!
2 Corinthians 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
Believers will enjoy a heavenly dwelling for the coming ages
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
2 Corinthians 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
The literal translation is eonian.
Believers will enjoy a heavenly dwelling for the coming ages which collectively come to an end.
Although it doesn't say so, they probably will continue to enjoy that dwelling after the ages have terminated and eternity continues with everyone saved from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
A snippet from THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – LOYAL F. HURLEY
“Only as one sees God’s Plan of the Ages do they see the beauty of God’s Program for the redemption of the race.
Heb. 11:3 should read, “Through faith we understand that the ages were planned by the Word of God.” The ages will collectively end. A literal translation of Heb. 9:26 is, ‘But now, once for all, with a view to the end of the ages, has He been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.’
Throughout the eons there is sin and evil, condemnation and death. At the end of the eons all will be justified (Rom. 5:18,19), and all will be reconciled through Christ’s blood (Col. 1:20).
Not because of eonian life, but because immortality is granted.
As legoman pointed out
"In John 3:16 Jesus promises eonian life (greek: aionios zoe), which quite literally means something of which the horizon/end-point is not in view, but can more generally have the meaning of "pertaining to an age or ages" ie. age-abiding.
Immortality is promised as shown by Paul in 1 Cor 15 - this is why all will be alive truly forever. Not because of eonian life, but because immortality is granted."
As legoman pointed out
"In John 3:16 Jesus promises eonian life (greek: aionios zoe), which quite literally means something of which the horizon/end-point is not in view, but can more generally have the meaning of "pertaining to an age or ages" ie. age-abiding.
Immortality is promised as shown by Paul in 1 Cor 15 - this is why all will be alive truly forever. Not because of eonian life, but because immortality is granted."
1 cor 15 is a fine chapter about resurrection, but this thread has shown where universalism fails completely in trying to invent theories in order to defend other invented theories.
1 cor 15 is a fine chapter about resurrection, but this thread has shown where universalism fails completely in trying to invent theories in order to defend other invented theories.
Whether ETers are willing to admit it or not, it really does come down to which Greek scholars you choose to rely on.
That is why the ET/UR debate will always be hopelessly deadlocked in a stalemate.
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS An Analytical Study of Words
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that is exactly what God is like.
1 cor 15 is a fine chapter about resurrection, but this thread has shown where universalism fails completely in trying to invent theories in order to defend other invented theories.
1C 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1C 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
1C 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
1C 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
I guess if you say that believing in putting on immortality is an invented theory, well, it must be true.......
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It's time to listen to "Brian's Song again from the OP
Believers will enjoy a heavenly dwelling for the coming ages
"My Greek scholars are more relieble than yours"
