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To obey the Gospel means to believe it, to receive it, as stated here:
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
1Co 15:1 MOREOVER, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
Believing the Gospel, ie: what it proclaims to us concerning Jesus, is doing the will of God (Joh 6:29). I'm rather surprised you did not know this also.
Furthermore, universal reconciliation is a biblical truth. And, it's really not what I say concerning it, but rather what the scriptures say. Unfortunately, you do not believe God's testimony, stated here:
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
and, what God will do, as stated here:
4
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Fraid not. Obeying the gospel , "you obeyed from your heart that pattern of teaching" from Romans 6:17 refers you right back to 6:3 and baptism.
Read it for yourself. Start with verse 3, and continue all the way to 23. It's impossible to throw baptism out of the picture. Baptism represents the gospel, the death, burial and ressurrection of Jesus. This is how you obey the gospel. There is no other way.
Do you know what a syecdoche is? Faith is a synecdoche.
Fraid not. Obeying the gospel , "you obeyed from your heart that pattern of teaching" from Romans 6:17 refers you right back to 6:3 and baptism....
There is nothing in Rom chapter 6, or anywhere else in scripture for that matter, that says being water baptized means "obeying the Gospel". Nothing. As a matter of fact, such an assertion on your part contradicts what scripture actually says concerning this matter.
Here, read the text that tell us what it means to "obey" the Gospel. It means to believe. To believe what you're hearing:
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
The word "obeyed" is being translated from the Greek word υπηκουσαν, and simply means: to listen, to harken, to listen attentively.
Secondly, the Gospel is said to be received (1 Cor 15:1). The word "received" is translated from the Greek word παρελαβετε and means: To take near, to associate with.
That is what it means to believe and receive the Gospel. To listen to what the Gospel proclamation tells us concerning Christ and what Jesus accomplished for us in His death and resurrection. It means to take it's truth near to us, to embrace it's Good News and unite ourselves to it through faith, to believe it.
Here is how the Gospel is received by those who believe:
1Th 1:5 For our gospelcame not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
Water baptism is not the cause, nor even the agent or instrument, whereby we believe or receive the Gospel. Nor is the act of being water baptized, or any other act we do, even mentioned or alluded to in the Gospel narrative that is said to save us. Read it again, here:
1Co 15:1 MOREOVER, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Those who believe what the Gospel proclaims are being saved (present tense) by it, namely: By Jesus' death for our sins and His resurrection for our justification. Those who do not believe this Good News are said to be lost:
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Do you believe this Gospel? It's really a simple yes or no answer.
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 12-22-2011 at 07:26 PM..
Reason: typo
[quote=AlabamaStorm;22236554]There is nothing in Rom chapter 6, or anywhere else in scripture for that matter, that says being water baptized means "obeying the Gospel". Nothing. As a matter of fact, such an assertion on your part contradicts what scripture actually says concerning this matter.
Here, read the text that tell us what it means to "obey" the Gospel. It means to believe. To believe what you're hearing:
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
The word "obeyed" is being translated from the Greek word υπηκουσαν, and simply means: to listen, to harken, to listen attentively.
Secondly, the Gospel is said to be received (1 Cor 15:1). The word "received" is translated from the Greek word παρελαβετε and means: To take near, to associate with.
That is what it means to believe and receive the Gospel. To listen to what the Gospel proclamation tells us concerning Christ and what Jesus accomplished for us in His death and resurrection. It means to take it's truth near to us, to embrace it's Good News and unite ourselves to it through faith, to believe it.
Here is how the Gospel is received by those who believe:
1Th 1:5 For our gospelcame not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
Water baptism is not the cause, nor even the agent or instrument, whereby we believe or receive the Gospel. Nor is the act of being water baptized, or any other act we do, even mentioned or alluded to in the Gospel narrative that is said to save us. Read it again, here:
1Co 15:1 MOREOVER, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Those who believe what the Gospel proclaims are being saved (present tense) by it, namely: By Jesus' death for our sins and His resurrection for our justification. Those who do not believe this Good News are said to be lost:
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Do you believe this Gospel? It's really a simple yes or no answer.[/Quote
It is a waste of both our time to continue to argue. We believe differently. Let's leave it at that. Repeating the same arguments over and over gets us nowhere. Nothing personal meant but it's time to move on.
No it wasn't meant as a personal attack. It just seems that you (and others) spend so much time speaking against baptism, it seems that you hate it. This is beyond my comprehension. How can you even question the necessity of baptism? Jesus commanded it. What more do you need? He told us to make disciples. How? By baptizing them. Baptism is what God wants us to do. It is His will.
Yes I absolutely believe we are saved WHEN we are baptized. Why wouldn't I believe it? Peter, who was given the keys to the kingdom, and was told whatever he bound on earth would be bound in heaven told the Jews when they asked, "What shall we do?" He told them to repent and be baptized FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS. He also said "Baptism now saves you." So to say that baptism saves is not scriptural is to completely cut 1 Peter 3:21 right out of the Bible.
If baptism saves doesn't mean baptism saves, then what the heck does it mean?
The water isn't what saves anymore than the water saved Naaman. By our faith and by submitting our will to His command, God in turn saves us by His grace.
Katie
If you believe that we are saved when we are baptized then Romans 10:9 should be cut out of the bible as well. Romans 10:9
New International Version (NIV)
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
No where is it mentioned that after you declare with your mouth Jesus and become baptized you will be saved now does it?
If you believe that we are saved when we are baptized then Romans 10:9 should be cut out of the bible as well. Romans 10:9
New International Version (NIV)
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,†and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
No where is it mentioned that after you declare with your mouth Jesus and become baptized you will be saved now does it?
Romans 10 does not make Acts 2:38 go away, and Peter says BAPTISM SAVES. (1 Peter 3:21).
No amount of twisting will change the simple language of these verses.
Faith can never precede regeneration. To be regenerated means to be born again. We are justified when we are born again. How? By having faith. We are justified by faith.
Faith is a synecdoche. It includes repentance, confession and baptism. Do some research on what synecdoche is.
The Grace of Hawyaw results in the individual's Regeneration by Hawyaw...The Regeneration by Hawyaw results in the individual's Hearing of the Word of Hawyaw...The Hearing of the Word of Hawyaw results in the individual's Faith in Jeshua by Hawyaw...The individual's Faith in Jeshua by Hawyaw results in the individual's Good Works through Jeshua by Hawyaw...It is ALL of Hawyaw, nothing of ourselves that bestows Salvation on us unworthy creatures...
That is incorrect. There are conditions for salvation. Faith is one of them. Faith is something we do. God doesn't do it for us.
Regeneration = Born Again
Jesus gave the condition. Unless you are born again, you won't go to heaven. To be born again we must have faith in Christ, enough faith to obey His gospel.
We obey the gospel when we are baptized into Christ.
That is incorrect. There are conditions for salvation. Faith is one of them. Faith is something we do. God doesn't do it for us.
Regeneration = Born Again
Jesus gave the condition. Unless you are born again, you won't go to heaven. To be born again we must have faith in Christ, enough faith to obey His gospel.
We obey the gospel when we are baptized into Christ.
Katie
I think the confusion comes in the use of the word "regeneration." Some people only think of the word in one narrow sense and restrict it to a single act, while others include the whole process by which one becomes a Child of God. The biblical definition of the word has various meanings including for example: "renewal of the mind", "a change of heart," and "being quickened." I think this may have already been posted but I'll list the biblical definition again:
Regeneration
only found in Matt. 19:28 and Titus 3:5.
This word literally means a "new birth." The Greek word so rendered (palingenesia) is used by classical writers with reference to the changes produced by the return of spring. In Matt. 19:28 the word is equivalent to the "restitution of all things" (Acts 3:21). In Titus 3:5 it denotes that change of heart elsewhere spoken of as a passing from death to life (1 John 3:14); becoming a new creature in Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 5:17); being born again (John 3:5); a renewal of the mind (Rom. 12:2); a resurrection from the dead (Eph. 2:6); a being quickened (2:1, 5). This change is ascribed to the Holy Spirit. It originates not with man but with God (John 1:12, 13; 1 John 2:29; 5:1, 4). As to the nature of the change, it consists in the implanting of a new principle or disposition in the soul;the impartation of spiritual life to those who are by nature "dead in trespasses and sins."
The necessity of such a change is emphatically affirmed in Scripture (John 3:3; Rom. 7:18; 8:7-9; 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:1; 4:21-24). BibleGateway.com Dictionaries: REGENERATION
I think some people are referring to a single act that comes after (or along with) faith, while others are referring to the whole process of the spiritual rebirth (being brought to spiritual life) that starts with the quickening of the holy spirit which enables a person to hear (understand) the gospel.
Take the analogy of a natural birth vs. a spiritual birth: God is the author of them both. Birth is neither the cause nor the beginning of life itself: rather is it the manifestationof a life already existent: there had been a Divine "quickening" before the child could issue from the womb. In like manner, the Holy Spirit "quickens" the soul, or imparts spiritual life to it, before its possessor is "brought forth" (as James 1:18 is rightly rendered in the R.V.) and "born again" by the Word of God (1 Pet. 1:23).
So to simply equate regeneration with being "born again" after faith has already been acquired, is to leave out the whole process by which the holy spirit imparts spiritual life (regenerates) to the spiritually dead prior to being "born".
I think the confusion comes in the use of the word "regeneration." Some people only think of the word in one narrow sense and restrict it to a single act, while others include the whole process by which one becomes a Child of God. The biblical definition of the word has various meanings including for example: "renewal of the mind", "a change of heart," and "being quickened." I think this may have already been posted but I'll list the biblical definition again:
Regeneration
only found in Matt. 19:28 and Titus 3:5.
This word literally means a "new birth." The Greek word so rendered (palingenesia) is used by classical writers with reference to the changes produced by the return of spring. In Matt. 19:28 the word is equivalent to the "restitution of all things" (Acts 3:21). In Titus 3:5 it denotes that change of heart elsewhere spoken of as a passing from death to life (1 John 3:14); becoming a new creature in Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 5:17); being born again (John 3:5); a renewal of the mind (Rom. 12:2); a resurrection from the dead (Eph. 2:6); a being quickened (2:1, 5). This change is ascribed to the Holy Spirit. It originates not with man but with God (John 1:12, 13; 1 John 2:29; 5:1, 4). As to the nature of the change, it consists in the implanting of a new principle or disposition in the soul;the impartation of spiritual life to those who are by nature "dead in trespasses and sins."
The necessity of such a change is emphatically affirmed in Scripture (John 3:3; Rom. 7:18; 8:7-9; 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:1; 4:21-24). BibleGateway.com Dictionaries: REGENERATION
I think some people are referring to a single act that comes after (or along with) faith, while others are referring to the whole process of the spiritual rebirth (being brought to spiritual life) that starts with the quickening of the holy spirit which enables a person to hear (understand) the gospel.
Take the analogy of a natural birth vs. a spiritual birth: God is the author of them both. Birth is neither the cause nor the beginning of life itself: rather is it the manifestationof a life already existent: there had been a Divine "quickening" before the child could issue from the womb. In like manner, the Holy Spirit "quickens" the soul, or imparts spiritual life to it, before its possessor is "brought forth" (as James 1:18 is rightly rendered in the R.V.) and "born again" by the Word of God (1 Pet. 1:23).
So to simply equate regeneration with being "born again" after faith has already been acquired, is to leave out the whole process by which the holy spirit imparts spiritual life (regenerates) to the spiritually dead prior to being "born".
Calvinist say that we do not have the ability to choose God because we are so totally depraved we are unable. That is a lie. They say we are regenerated before we have faith apart from the word of God. This a vile and evil doctrine and goes completely against the scriptures.
We are justified by faith. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. The Holy Spirit does not work upon man's heart apart from the word of God. Spin it however you want, regeneration before faith is a lie.
Calvinist say that we do not have the ability to choose God because we are so totally depraved we are unable. That is a lie. They say we are regenerated before we have faith apart from the word of God. This a vile and evil doctrine and goes completely against the scriptures.
We are justified by faith. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. The Holy Spirit does not work upon man's heart apart from the word of God. Spin it however you want, regeneration before faith is a lie.
Katie
Yes, faith does come by hearing the word of god. Do you know what it means to "hear" the word of god?
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Correct!
