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Perhaps the author intended it to mean "be saved and believe in the lord Jesus."
Maybe the order is irrelevant. Maybe to see the regeneration you have to believe. Maybe to see salvation you have to believe. Inherently being saved is not a contradiction to that.
I personally think god meets you at your level then lends you a hand (life preserver if you will) to bring you to realize your salvation was there the whole time.
Does that mean I think regeneration comes before faith??? I don't know.
Another great post, Kat. "Re-Generation" is what Christ achieved for our entire species . . . He began a new "spiritual generation" upon His rebirth as Spirit and making His Holy Spirit available to us ALL within our consciousness (embryo Spirit). The "born again" believers have it out of order. We are "pregnant" (i.e., begotten "born of God") . . . not reborn . . . UNTIL our physical death and rebirth as Spirit (like Christ). We can't be "reborn" until we are "unborn" (die) from this life. Flesh is born as Flesh . . Spirit is born as Spirit.
Another great post, Kat. "Re-Generation" is what Christ achieved for our entire species . . . He began a new "spiritual generation" upon His rebirth as Spirit and making His Holy Spirit available to us ALL within our consciousness (embryo Spirit). The "born again" believers have it out of order. We are "pregnant" (i.e., begotten "born of God") . . . not reborn . . . UNTIL our physical death and rebirth as Spirit (like Christ). We can't be "reborn" until we are "unborn" (die) from this life. Flesh is born as Flesh . . Spirit is born as Spirit.
To the contrary. You are using John 3:6 to say something which is unscriptural.
Regeneration refers to being born again which is the same as being born from above, or born of God, and occurs only when a person places his faith in Jesus Christ.
Regeneration is a salvation ministry of God the Holy Spirit and has occurred in every dispensation. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit on the other hand is a ministry of the Holy Spirit that occurrs only during the dispensation of the Church. No one was indwelt by the Holy Spirit prior to the church-age. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not the same as enduement, which did occur in the age of Israel. Induement was given for the purpose of accomplishing certain tasks, and could be taken away because of disobedience. Only a few people were ever endued in the age of Israel. In the church-age every believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and that indwelling cannot be taken away.
The word 'Regeneration' is from the Greek word Palingenesias - Paliggenesis. Paling - again, genesias - birth, beginning. Regeneration means to be born again - a new birth. To be reborn.
When Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again (John 3:3), He had not yet gone to the cross, and had not been resurrected.
In John 3:8 Jesus told Nicodemus that ''The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.''
Regeneration is being born again, being reborn, born of the Spirit. Jesus said to Nicodemus, ''so is everyone who is born (who has been born) of the Spirit.'' The phrase 'has been born' is translated from gegennemenos and is in the Perfect tense. The Perfect tense means completed action with results continuing on in full effect. A person is born again the very moment he places his faith in Christ for salvation.
1 Peter 1:23 'for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.'For you have been born again' is translated from 'anagegennemenoi' - born again, from above, and is Present tense.
HELP'S Word studies
313 /anagennáō ("born again, from above") is used twice in the NT (1 Pet 1:3,23) – both times referring to God regenerating a believer (giving a supernatural, new birth). Strong's Greek: 313. ????????? (anagennaó) -- to beget again
The claim that the believer cannot be reborn until physical death and rebirth as spirit is completely unscriptural.
The claim that Jesus was reborn as Spirit is also completely unscriptural and smacks of Gnosticism. Jesus' body was resurrected. He was not reborn. His body was resurrected as a glorified body of flesh and bone. Not as an immaterial spirit.
Another great post, Kat. "Re-Generation" is what Christ achieved for our entire species . . . He began a new "spiritual generation" upon His rebirth as Spirit and making His Holy Spirit available to us ALL within our consciousness (embryo Spirit). The "born again" believers have it out of order. We are "pregnant" (i.e., begotten "born of God") . . . not reborn . . . UNTIL our physical death and rebirth as Spirit (like Christ). We can't be "reborn" until we are "unborn" (die) from this life. Flesh is born as Flesh . . Spirit is born as Spirit.
[quote=Richard1965;21766202]Or things that look more desirable...Like the JW theology of getting to live out your physical life on a new earth...That is most desirable...But is it true?...
quote I see it more as creating Hawyaw in your own image instead of conforming to the attributes of Hawyaw...I am beginning to wonder if Hawyaw did not create all this 'diversity' for the purpose of christian growth...In other words those who want to know THE Truth will dig deep and be prepared to accept the Truth no matter how distasteful it seems to their human side...You know, 'Everybody gets a Gold Star no matter what' thinking...Which to me is humanism...
I don't doubt that many of our Arminian friends truly believe that the Bible teaches that we must "make the choice", ourselves. But I feel they are missing the point that, being spiritually dead, we can make no choice, as it were, until God actually and literally makes us alive.
It is true that we, in another sense, are given eternal life when we become saved. But until God does His work in us (from the very beginning), our chances of "hearing" the message of the gospel are exactly the same as they would be for dead people in the cemetery to hear the message. I'm so sorry that more people do not see the account of the raising of Lazarus as a picture of God "calling" a dead sinner to life unto salvation.
I don't believe your comment about Christian growth is off the mark, at all. We are instructed to really search and dig into the Scriptures. I like the passage in Isaiah which reads:
Isa 28:9-10
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Also, Proverbs 25:2 tells us that "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter".
We would both agree that it is crucial to really searchand examine the Scriptures before making any conclusion pertaining to a doctrine.
quote This is what Predestination is...What Sovreign Choice is...What Election is...One does not become Predestinated or Chosen or Elected once one gets around to 'joining' the body of Jeshua...It is BECAUSE of those three terms that one BECOMES a member of the body of Jeshua...Most people do not understand Calvin's or Augustine's Logic and Reason on total depravity...If one would ask themselves why is it that Hawyaw has to intervene and regenerate us to enable us to respond positively to the Gospel because we are all dead in trespasses and sins, they would come to the conclusion that it is because we are totally depraved, this is why we are unable to respond without Hawyaw's intervention...This was logically thought out by Calvin and Augustine and later Calvin coined the term 'Total Depravity'...Which by definition implies an inability to see the Reign of Hawyaw without His intervention as He says, 'neither are we able to'...
Many professing believers, though perhaps unwittingly, by saying that the choice is ultimately up to us, are making us partners with God in the salvation process. God is not a respecter of persons, but His sovereign choice is just that...His sovereign choice...for His own purpose ("who works all things after the counsel of His own will").
quote Certainly...It is easy when one employs Logic and Reason...I call it 'Balancing out' The Scriptures...I believe it was Calvin that said, 'The theme of a Pre-Ordained Universe and Free will run side by side throughout the entire Bible' however, He stated that even He was unable to reconcile the two...My thought on the matter is that If we have no existence outside of Hawyaw, and that we had no prior existance untill He brought us into existance...This begs the question of, 'Where do our thoughts and choices, etal. originate from?...This is just a theory i've put out before but no one seemed to want to discuss it...And it is, I theorize, our DNA that Hawyaw has programmed either to Respond or to Reject the Gospel...In other words, only those with the devine spark embeded into their genetic code will respond positively to the Gospel...The one missing that 'line of code' will not...So, by 'hearing' the Gospel that time stamped line of code becomes activated...Kinda like a program that has code embeded in it that will only become active when a user types a specific keyword into a textbox and presses enter...Again, this is only a theory of mine...
It's indeed interesting. But one thing I understand from the Scriptures is that we are "dead intrespasses and sins", and desperately need the life-giving work of God on our behalf to enable us to hear the gospel and come to Christ.
quote Then it is not Predestination, Fore-Ordination, Sovreign Choice or Election...Hawyaw is not the Master of our destinies...We are...So, why use those terms in the Scriptures if they do not imply what their definitions are?...
I completely agree. Then the terms make no real sense.
quote Again, this is because people wish to create their own god...Since sinful man has become more liberal, they also want a liberal god...I've heard it many times from many 'liberal' people that if Hawyaw is really like what I see in the Scriptures, that they wouldn't want to worship a god like that...If He does not give everyone a choice or the opportunity, they don't want anything to do with Him...They want a liberal god that fits their image...A god who has their attributes...In todays world Justice is just a word...Righteousness is a word with dynamic meanig...
I still believe that no one who has truly been brought from spiritual death to life will fight over this kind of thing. We are simply grateful to God for His mercy and grace, and our response will be in accordance with the new spirit we now have within us (though the Romans 7 dilemma will still give us trouble).
quote Exactly...The whole universe from the beginning to the end had no existence until Hawyaw created it...And if Hawyaw thought it out down to every detail...Then everything man, history, choices, righteousness, evil, all of it has it's origins either directly or indirectly in Hawyaw...Even Satan can do nothing unless Hawyaw allow him to...Look at Job...I see through the Scriptures that Satan, as the Hebrews saw him, is just a development tool used by Hawyaw...How else would one explain why, when sin is not permitted in Hawyaw's presence. and Satan is supposedly Evil and Sinful, that he was in fact in the presence of Hawyaw and discoursed with Hawyaw regarding Job?...Another thing is that most Christians see Hawyaw as this person far away in the Heavens, when in fact the whole Universe exists inside of Hawyaw...This would explain His Omnipresence...Maybe there is some Truth in the Pagan belief that god is in everything, rocks, trees, man, etc....A Truth remembered from ancient times that has gotten degraded as has Christianity in the last 2000 years...
Yes...Definitely...Perhaps if You and I discuss what we know to be True others may get something positive from our discourse...
We do, indeed, need to be faithful to what the Scriptures teach, and pray for guidance to "rightly divide/cut straight" the Word of Truth.
Yes, I'm familiar with all of your Arminian teachings concerning regeneration. Your Arminian doctrine of "common grace", better known as prevenient grace in reformed circles, is dealt with here.
Also, if you scan down to the bottom of the article, you'll find additional reading material for your edification.
Happy reading...
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I was once of the Arminian camp...confused and lost for 8 years...
In five point Calvinism, ''regeneration'' is not simply God drawing people to Christ – so that they can believe and then, at that point, be saved. In five point Calvinism, regeneration means completed salvation. Therefore, in saying that regeneration precedes faith, five point Calvinism says that salvation precedes faith. It means the new birth precedes faith. It means that there can be a saved unbeliever. And that is completely at odds with divine revelation. Any one of a number of Scripture verses proves that. But I will give just one which will serve to prove the point.
1 Peter 1:9 'obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.'
The end result of faith is the salvation of your soul. Faith precedes regeneration. Faith in Christ precedes the salvation of the soul.
It does not require scholarship or theological arguements to understand what the Bible means by 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...' (Acts 16:31)
Rgeneration simply means being made alive so that you can respond to the Gospel Call...It is only the dead sinful nature that cannot respond to the Call...I maintain that the historical account of Lazarus is also a spiritual analogy...
To the contrary. You are using John 3:6 to say something which is unscriptural.
Regeneration refers to being born again which is the same as being born from above, or born of God, and occurs only when a person places his faith in Jesus Christ.
Regeneration is a salvation ministry of God the Holy Spirit and has occurred in every dispensation. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit on the other hand is a ministry of the Holy Spirit that occurrs only during the dispensation of the Church. No one was indwelt by the Holy Spirit prior to the church-age. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not the same as enduement, which did occur in the age of Israel. Induement was given for the purpose of accomplishing certain tasks, and could be taken away because of disobedience. Only a few people were ever endued in the age of Israel. In the church-age every believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and that indwelling cannot be taken away.
The word 'Regeneration' is from the Greek word Palingenesias - Paliggenesis. Paling - again, genesias - birth, beginning. Regeneration means to be born again - a new birth. To be reborn.
When Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again (John 3:3), He had not yet gone to the cross, and had not been resurrected.
In John 3:8 Jesus told Nicodemus that ''The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.''
Regeneration is being born again, being reborn, born of the Spirit. Jesus said to Nicodemus, ''so is everyone who is born (who has been born) of the Spirit.'' The phrase 'has been born' is translated from gegennemenos and is in the Perfect tense. The Perfect tense means completed action with results continuing on in full effect. A person is born again the very moment he places his faith in Christ for salvation.
1 Peter 1:23 'for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.'For you have been born again' is translated from 'anagegennemenoi' - born again, from above, and is Present tense.
HELP'S Word studies
313 /anagennáō ("born again, from above") is used twice in the NT (1 Pet 1:3,23) – both times referring to God regenerating a believer (giving a supernatural, new birth). Strong's Greek: 313. ????????? (anagennaó) -- to beget again
The claim that the believer cannot be reborn until physical death and rebirth as spirit is completely unscriptural.
The claim that Jesus was reborn as Spirit is also completely unscriptural and smacks of Gnosticism. Jesus' body was resurrected. He was not reborn. His body was resurrected as a glorified body of flesh and bone. Not as an immaterial spirit.
No. I deliberately gave you that link without any comment from me, because if you aren't willing to take a look at it, then you aren't interested in learning. Only in debating.
Rgeneration simply means being made alive so that you can respond to the Gospel Call...It is only the dead sinful nature that cannot respond to the Call...I maintain that the historical account of Lazarus is also a spiritual analogy...
Regeneration is being born again and refers to being given eternal life. No one can be saved until they first respond to the gospel message.
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