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In the life of the average Hebrew boy there were three major events which drew broad public attention to him. The first of these events was his "Circumcision," which occurred when he was an infant, at eight days old. This was the moment that he was marked as a "covenant man" in Israel, and was celebrated throughout the community.
The circumcision also served a health reason...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren
The second major event was his "Bar-Mitzvah," which took place as he was about to enter into puberty. The word Bar-Mitzvah actually means "a son accountable," and this signified the time, not only when he was held accountable for keeping the Commandments of God, but also when he was to become an apprentice under his father in the family business. This, too, was celebrated as a very special event in the life of the child, just as it is today.
It actually means 'Son of Commandment' or also transalated as 'Son of Obligation'...Because the Mitzvah is the Hebrew Law...For Bat Mitzvah just subtitute Daughter of...This event also brought them officially into adulthood whereby the could marry, start a family or a bussiness...They were considered adults at this time...Sort of like the American Indian right of passage into Manhood...Can't remember what age that occurs at tho without looking it up...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren
The third event was what was known as the "Huiothesia," or the (young man's) "adoption ceremony." The word "Huiothesia" means "Son Placement," and indicates the time when a male child reached what was considered to be the age of maturity (somewhere around 30). At this time, the father of the young man would place his hand on the head of his son and openly proclaim, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased! I bestow upon him now all of my riches and power and authority (through power of attorney) so that he might act on my behalf in all of my affairs."
Just by the word alone, it seems Greek, so i'd be careful about that event since the article did not use a Hebrew word, I find it suspect...Ya know what I do when I see differences on line regarding Jewish customs?...I call an orthodox Synagogue...And ask a Rabbi...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren
Beloved friends, can you see that the three experiences that are described in the life of an Israelite male, and the three stages shown to us in the life of Jesus, are to be spiritually discerned so that we may understand God's enduring process for our own spiritual growth into sons? Can you now understand why Jesus would say to Mary and Joseph at age 12, "Know ye not that I must be about My Father's business?" Can you see that He was proclaiming His just then entered apprenticeship under the Father? At that point Jesus was just entering an 18 year stage of "learning the family business" so to speak. His Sonship ceremony at the Jordan which would "fulfill all righteousness" and launch His glorious Sonship ministry would not be performed until He reached the full stage of "maturity." The Holy Spirit's descent like a dove upon Jesus was in essence the hand of the Father coming upon the Son to proclaim His Sonship ministry! The Father said, "This is My Beloved Son in Whom I AM well pleased!" Many of us have not understood the full ramifications of those words, or that ceremony, until now. But there is now a great light of revelation being shed upon such things in this day.
This is the end of passages I copied and pasted from the linked article.
I find it quite enlightening.
Be careful about 'overspiritualization' of Scripture...Not everything is as it seems, and sometimes it is just as it is....
Be careful about 'overspiritualization' of Scripture...Not everything is as it seems, and sometimes it is just as it is....
I believe there are many layers to scripture. Where ever you are at with your walk, whatever speaks to you, is where you learn the most. Be careful of WHATEVER you believe in listening to ANYONE'S interpretation, physical OR spiritual.
I am either taking what you are saying personally as an attack or I'm just too tired right now. Please accept my apologies if you didn't intend on attacking me.
As far as you question, I DON'T HATE BAPTISM, especially when I attend a Baptist church...now I am laughing out loud. So I am not getting your question. Yes Jesus did command baptism. But baptism shouldn't be conversed with it saving our souls, and to me it sounds like you believe that in order to be saved, you must be baptized, and that's not scriptural at all.
No it wasn't meant as a personal attack. It just seems that you (and others) spend so much time speaking against baptism, it seems that you hate it. This is beyond my comprehension. How can you even question the necessity of baptism? Jesus commanded it. What more do you need? He told us to make disciples. How? By baptizing them. Baptism is what God wants us to do. It is His will.
Yes I absolutely believe we are saved WHEN we are baptized. Why wouldn't I believe it? Peter, who was given the keys to the kingdom, and was told whatever he bound on earth would be bound in heaven told the Jews when they asked, "What shall we do?" He told them to repent and be baptized FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS. He also said "Baptism now saves you." So to say that baptism saves is not scriptural is to completely cut 1 Peter 3:21 right out of the Bible.
If baptism saves doesn't mean baptism saves, then what the heck does it mean?
The water isn't what saves anymore than the water saved Naaman. By our faith and by submitting our will to His command, God in turn saves us by His grace.
Be careful about 'overspiritualization' of Scripture...Not everything is as it seems, and sometimes it is just as it is....
I believe there are many layers to scripture. Where ever you are at with your walk, whatever speaks to you, is where you learn the most. Be careful of WHATEVER you believe in listening to ANYONE'S interpretation, physical OR spiritual.
I go with logic and reason in Scripture because others books are just to widely different in opinion...And most of the time leaving things out of their opinions that may dismantle their opinion...
...Yes I absolutely believe we are saved WHEN we are baptized. Why wouldn't I believe it? Peter, who was given the keys to the kingdom, and was told whatever he bound on earth would be bound in heaven told the Jews when they asked, "What shall we do?" He told them to repent and be baptized FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS. He also said "Baptism now saves you." So to say that baptism saves is not scriptural is to completely cut 1 Peter 3:21 right out of the Bible.
If baptism saves doesn't mean baptism saves, then what the heck does it mean?...
It actually means what Peter tells us in the verse. Baptism is an antitype of that which does the saving. Baptism is the figure and symbol or Christ's death and resurrection, as proclaimed in the Gospel. Peter is very clear about this in the verse you're referring to:
1Pe 3:21 also to which an antitype doth now save us--baptism, (not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the question of a good conscience in regard to God,) through the rising again of Jesus Christ,
Peter, who was given the keys to the kingdom, and was told whatever he bound on earth would be bound in heaven...
Katie
That's kind of an odd interpretation... It would seem, if what you're telling us is true, Peter's keys on earth would have preeminence over what happens in heaven. I don't think that is what Mat 16:19 or Mat 18:18 is actually telling us. Here is how these texts read, using the YLT:
Mat 16:19 and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.'
Mat 18:18 `Verily I say to you, Whatever things ye may bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever things ye may loose on the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.
If you'll notice, the verbs "bind" and "loose" (those things being done on earth with Peter's keys) are in the Greek aorist tense, subjunctive mood. Those acts are simple occurrence (punctiliar events, if you will), without regard to timing.
The verb translated as "shall be" is in the Greek future tense.
However, the verbs "bound" and "loosed" (those things done in Heaven) are in the Greek perfect tense. A completed event, acts that have already been completed in Heaven.
The keys given to Peter are simply for locking or unlocking whatever has already been, past tense, locked or unlocked in Heaven. And whatever Peter locks or unlocks, "shall be", future tense, locked or unlocked on earth. That is what those texts actually say.
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 12-11-2011 at 05:03 PM..
Evening. I believe that the verse you quoted in Ephesians sums it all up quite nicely. You must be able to receive the message, and upon receiving the message; your heart must be receptive to the message. There are many instances in the gospels where an individual had all the outward appearances of belief, but in fact their hearts were far from the truth of Christ. I wish I knew where this verse was but it goes like this. "There are those among you who draw near to me with you lips, but your hearts are far from me". I believe that this is illustrated very with the story of the Roman soldier approaching Christ wanting him to save his servant. Christ told those around him "assuredly I say unto you no faith like this is found in Judea". Quite simply I believe that faith is the bedrock on which our salvation is built. Peace be with your spirit.
I go with logic and reason in Scripture because others books are just to widely different in opinion...And most of the time leaving things out of their opinions that may dismantle their opinion...
Well, Christ said that if we didn't understand the things he said about the physical, we could not understand the spiritual. I believe the most important truths in scripture are spiritual. And things you cannot see are not always the most reasonable from someone's view, until God opens their spiritual eyes. I do not claim to have complete understanding; There is so much I don not know, yet I know much more than I did ten years ago. When God leads me to information which resonates with my spirit I rejoice.
....It just seems that you (and others) spend so much time speaking against baptism, it seems that you hate it. This is beyond my comprehension. How can you even question the necessity of baptism? Jesus commanded it. What more do you need? He told us to make disciples. How? By baptizing them. Baptism is what God wants us to do. It is His will.
Katie
I don't really think anyone here is "speaking against" baptism, nor do they "hate" baptism. What I think people are trying to understand is what relationship baptism has with regards to regeneration and salvation.
My personal belief is that if someone believes that in their being baptized is what actually forgives their sins, or perhaps causes their regeneration and salvation, then that particular person does not really believe the proclamation of the Gospel.
Nor have they believed what Christ Himself, alone, accomplished for them on the cross. If a person actually believes the Gospel that they ARE healed by His stripes, just like Isaiah tells us, here:
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
and here, as Paul tells us:
1Co 15:1 MOREOVER, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
then, such a person who believes would know that baptism is actually a symbol, or an antitype, that points to what actually does the saving. That is: Jesus' death and resurrection, as Peter also tells us in 1 Pet 3:21.
And consequently, that's where their faith is to be found, upon Christ and His work for us. The act of being water baptized expresses (as an antitype) that truth of Jesus' death and resurrection to us, and those who are baptized are expressing their faith and trust in that truth of what Jesus accomplished on the cross for them.
So, it would seem (at least to me), that how a person perceives their baptism is really a matter of how they perceive (or better yet, receive) the Gospel, and what they actually believe concerning the Gospel's proclamation to them.
Be careful about 'overspiritualization' of Scripture...Not everything is as it seems, and sometimes it is just as it is....
We cannot overspiritualize writings that are intended for our spiritual edification . . . NOT our carnal.
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in my opinion
