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I know a person who professes to be a Christian, who I believe to be one of the best examples of a Christian I know. A kind and caring person, sensitive, loves everybody and shows Christ like kindness towards everybody.
The only thing about this person is that he is not sure Christ was son of God. That doesn't stop him from calling himself a Christian, or being an excellent example of a Christian.
Now, my church (Baptist) would believe he is not saved and therefore headed for eternal damnation. However, I am finding it difficult to believe God would punish a person like this, even though I know my pastor can show me all kinds of passages in the bible. It still just seems to go against the concept of Grace to me.
He isn't perfect, as none of the rest of us are perfect either. However, he is not an evildoer either, or wicked, or any of the negative persons spoken about in Proverbs for example.
Was just hoping to get some other thoughts. I am sure I will get some replies from folks like those I fellowship with at church who will say he must be born again with a profession of believing on Christ to have eternal security. I just wonder if that is true, or just man's imperfect interpretation.
This is a prime example of where decision theology makes coming to faith and remaining in the faith a human work. I have repeatedly told the example of a teen whom I knew that struggled who was told the same thing (from the same denomination) and was devestated by it.
The phrase "he must be born again with a profession of believing on Christ to have eternal security." ... shows where the burden is being placed for coming to faith. This also shows that the teaching of eternal security is not being properly used\understood.
The two best struggling examples of believers are found within the Apostles .... Peter, Paul. They struggled, outright denied Jesus and confessed "the evil I hate to do .. that I do. What a wretched man I am". But both relied on Christ for their forgiveness and assurance of that forgiveness.
The other example of a struggling believer is also found within the Apostles .... Judas.
Judas was a believer for we know this:
either your for Christ or against him
if you're against him...you're unbeliever
if you're against him .. you're unbeliever ... you're for the devil
A house divide against itself will not stand.
In Matthew 10, Jesus "called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits" ........... point is: for person to "never have faith to begin with" (which would mean he was always an unbeliever) would not drive out evil spirits for that would be a house divided against itself.
What happened to Judas later on was that he forfeited his faith unlike Peter and Paul. Judas rejected Christ and went to hell for it.
There is a difference between "not sure" vs "rejecting that". However, unless we are in the conversations between this person you're refering to and the pastor, your pastor may have more knowledge about the situation.
For to reject Jesus as the Son of God is to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. Read the exchange between this woman and Jesus from scripture:
John 11:25-27
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
her response:
“Yes, Lord,” she told him, “I believe that you are the Christ,the Son of God, who was to come into the world.”
A person who rejects Jesus as the Son of God ( the second person of the trinity) will not live even though he dies physically .......meaning is damned.
This person need to hear the call of repentance and instruction in a gentle manner as possible.
What the OP is doing is judging a person to be good by comparing them to other human sinners. When that person is compared to a righteous and holy God then they are evil. Do we know the person’s motivation for doing good works? Is it to bring glory onto themselves or God? Could we not interview that person and see that they lie, steal, lust and have all sorts of evil in their hearts?
On the outside I doubt you could find one person that says anything bad about me. I'm a deacon, in church every Sunday. I treat everyone with respect the best I can. I don't curse, drink or smoke. However I know my heart and I am an evil person in the presence of the almighty. That's why I need Jesus.
Romans 3:10 – There is none righteous, no not one.
I know a person who professes to be a Christian, who I believe to be one of the best examples of a Christian I know. A kind and caring person, sensitive, loves everybody and shows Christ like kindness towards everybody.
The only thing about this person is that he is not sure Christ was son of God. That doesn't stop him from calling himself a Christian, or being an excellent example of a Christian.
Now, my church (Baptist) would believe he is not saved and therefore headed for eternal damnation. However, I am finding it difficult to believe God would punish a person like this, even though I know my pastor can show me all kinds of passages in the bible. It still just seems to go against the concept of Grace to me.
He isn't perfect, as none of the rest of us are perfect either. However, he is not an evildoer either, or wicked, or any of the negative persons spoken about in Proverbs for example.
Was just hoping to get some other thoughts. I am sure I will get some replies from folks like those I fellowship with at church who will say he must be born again with a profession of believing on Christ to have eternal security. I just wonder if that is true, or just man's imperfect interpretation.
Yes, you must believe on Christ in order to be eternally saved. The Bible is absolutely clear on that. John 3:16, 3:36; Acts 16:30,31 are just two examples.
To be eternally saved there are certain things you must believe about Christ. You must believe that He is who He said He is. Jesus said that He is the Messiah. He said He is the Son of God which in reference to Jesus means that He is God. You must understand that because you are a sinner and in need of salvation but can do nothing to save yourself, He became a man and went to the cross where He died for your sins, was buried and rose again. Understanding these things about Christ, if you have put your trust, your faith in Him for salvation then you are eternally saved.
Once a person has made a one time decision to trust in Christ for his salvation he is eternally secure. He can never lose his salvation. If at one time your friend did believe that Jesus is the Son of God and trusted in Him for salvation, then he has been saved. But if he never believed that Jesus is the Son of God, then he was never saved in the first place and he must come to the realization that Jesus Christ is God.
Unbelievers can be kind, caring, sensitive, and moral, but will still end up in the lake of fire forever solely because they have never received Christ as Savior.
A person can renounce Christ after having been saved, but he will not lose his eternal salvation. Once having been saved the matter is out of his hands. He is kept by the power of God.
I did a recent thread on the believers eternal security that you might want to read.
Being nice and friendly to people in a worldly way is not what is meant by "love one another".Man must love others the way that the son of man keeps the commandments of the Lord who sent Him.This is what he says in regards to that.
Quote:
Bk of John;
As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you. Live on in in my love. You will live in my love if you keep my commandments , just as I have kept my Father's commandments and live in his love.
I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and your joy may be complete. This is my commandment: love one another as I have loved you.
The son of mans love is different than the way the world loves. He loves like His Father loves and to live in his love man must keep the commandments that were given to him as he kept them. If you wonder what those commandments are then check out this verse;
Quote:
Bk of John;
Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words he already has his judge namely the words I‘ve spoken that’s what will condemn him on the last day, because I did not speak on my own, but the Lord who sent me commanded me what to say and speak. And since I know that his commandment means eternal life, what I say is spoken just as he instructed me.
This shows that he is commanded what to say and that these commands he considers the commandments. So I would say that in order to love others like he does you must use those same words as he did and thus that is how everyone will know that you are his disciple, because you sound like him. Otherwise you are just loving like man loves which is not the way God loves.That is why every religion looks the same because they all love like man loves, not like God loves.
It is written; "Speak the truth to one another."
"I the Lord speak the truth, I say what is right".
"No one speaks truthfully, they refuse to recognize me"; says the Lord.
"If you continue in my words you are truly my disciple, then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free".
"Wisdom makes friends of God and prophets".
"You are my friends if you do what I command you".
The only thing about this person is that he is not sure Christ was son of God.
Do you know why he is not sure and does He believe that Jesus died for His sins? Maybe if you talked to him to find out why he is struggling, it might shed some light and pray for God to reveal Himself to him. God loves this person and knows His heart and what is going on. I don't believe that anyone will be lost for eternity or eternally damned. God's love and power is greater than that. God bless.
I know a person who professes to be a Christian, who I believe to be one of the best examples of a Christian I know. A kind and caring person, sensitive, loves everybody and shows Christ like kindness towards everybody.
The only thing about this person is that he is not sure Christ was son of God. That doesn't stop him from calling himself a Christian, or being an excellent example of a Christian.
Now, my church (Baptist) would believe he is not saved and therefore headed for eternal damnation. However, I am finding it difficult to believe God would punish a person like this, even though I know my pastor can show me all kinds of passages in the bible. It still just seems to go against the concept of Grace to me.
He isn't perfect, as none of the rest of us are perfect either. However, he is not an evildoer either, or wicked, or any of the negative persons spoken about in Proverbs for example.
Was just hoping to get some other thoughts. I am sure I will get some replies from folks like those I fellowship with at church who will say he must be born again with a profession of believing on Christ to have eternal security. I just wonder if that is true, or just man's imperfect interpretation.
Checkered, I'm curious if this friend of yours reads the Scriptures? If he does tell him to read these passages; or bettter yet; read them to him:
Mt 8:29 And, behold, they [the demons]cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Mt 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he [Christ] said, I am the Son of God.
Mt 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God
Mt 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God
John 10:30- 22, 36-38
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Then tell him to read Daniel 3:25 and he will understand why the religious leaders [who knew the OT and where the term Son of God was used] of the day said Christ was a blasphemer for calling Himself The Son of God.
Dan. 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
That is where I would start with a friend if he/she was having trouble believing that Christ was indeed the Son of God. Then go from there.
God knows all men's hearts. He knows if your friend has 'heard with understanding' or not. The word hear in the passage below means to hear with understanding.
Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
If your friend has not heard with understanding [the gospel messege or that Christ IS the Son of God] then God understands and does not hold him accountable.
I know this goes against what mainline denominational churches teach, but God is fair in all His dealings with men, and that's why He says, "how can they hear [understand] without a preacher?"
Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? [akouo to comprehend with understanding] and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Last edited by mshipmate; 12-10-2011 at 05:59 PM..
I know a person who professes to be a Christian, who I believe to be one of the best examples of a Christian I know. A kind and caring person, sensitive, loves everybody and shows Christ like kindness towards everybody.
The only thing about this person is that he is not sure Christ was son of God. That doesn't stop him from calling himself a Christian, or being an excellent example of a Christian.
Now, my church (Baptist) would believe he is not saved and therefore headed for eternal damnation. However, I am finding it difficult to believe God would punish a person like this, even though I know my pastor can show me all kinds of passages in the bible. It still just seems to go against the concept of Grace to me.
He isn't perfect, as none of the rest of us are perfect either. However, he is not an evildoer either, or wicked, or any of the negative persons spoken about in Proverbs for example.
Was just hoping to get some other thoughts. I am sure I will get some replies from folks like those I fellowship with at church who will say he must be born again with a profession of believing on Christ to have eternal security. I just wonder if that is true, or just man's imperfect interpretation.
Let all of those Christians who are without sin cast the first stone.
If you don't believe the Bible, who/what are you believing? Where is your idea of grace coming from?
Oh for pete's sake, stop this asinine all or nothing attitude. Believing the Bible does NOT mean believing every single thing in it is inerrant, infallible truth . . . or that everything in it is Good . . . or that it is ALL applicable to us today. God-inspired does NOT mean dictated and inerrant. It just means it contains things God wants us to know . . . interpreted and embellished by our ignorant ancient ancestors using their beliefs and superstitions about God.
You are NOT the only one who believes the Bible. You are just among those who ridiculously believe it ALL, literally and completely no matter how it goes against what Christ taught or what God has "written in our hearts."
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