Problems with Luke's Nativity Narrative (Gospel, testimony, believe, disciple)
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Both Matthew's and Luke's nativity narratives have problems. But Luke's seems the least historically tenable.
"In those days a decree went out from Emperor Augustus that all the world should be registered. This was the first registration and was taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. All went to their own towns to be registered. Joseph also went from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David calledBethlehem, because he was descended from the house and family of David. He went to be registered with Mary, to whom he was engaged and who was expecting a child. While they were there, the time came forher to deliver her child." (NRSV)
PROBLEMS:
1. Roman universal registrations took place in 28 BC, 8 BC, and 14 AD. There are no records (except for Luke's claim) that such took place in 6 AD.
2. Luke is correct in that a local census of Judea took place when King Herod's son and inheritor, Archelaus, was deposed and banished by the Romans in 6 AD. This census was under the oversight of the Roman governor Quirinius. (See Josephus, Antiquities 17.355 & 18.1-2).
3. There is no historical record of the Roman Empire requiring people to return to an ancestral city for a census. If fact, this would be counter productive. The Romans were interested in the taxee's assets especially the extent of his property. They didn't care about Jewish ancestry.
4. Luke overlooked the fact that the Quirinius' local census was limited to Judea (and perhaps Syria where Quirinius was governor). Galilee, where Nazareth is located, continued under the rulership (and taxation) of Herod Antipas, another of Herod's sons, until 39 AD. Hence Joseph and Mary would not have been required to register for Quirinius' census of Judea.
5. King Herod died in 4 B.C. Thus if Luke's gospel is correct, Matthew's claim of the King Herod's dialogue with the Magi, the Star of Bethelem, the Slaughter of the Innocent, and the Flight into Egypt are chronologically impossible since King Herod had been dead ten years.
Opinions?
Last edited by ancient warrior; 12-17-2011 at 12:22 PM..
Reason: typo
Both Matthew's and Luke's nativity narratives have problems. But Luke's seems the least historically tenable.
"In those days a decree went out from Emperor Augustus that all the world should be registered. This was the first registration and was taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. All went to their own towns to be registered. Joseph also went from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David calledBethlehem, because he was descended from the house and family of David. He went to be registered with Mary, to whom he was engaged and who was expecting a child. While they were there, the time came forher to deliver her child." (NRSV)
PROBLEMS:
1. Roman universal registrations took place in 28 BC, 8 BC, and 14 AD. There are no records (except for Luke's claim) that such took place in 6 AD.
2. Luke is correct in that a local census of Judea took place when King Herod's son and inheritor, Archelaus, was deposed and banished by the Romans in 6 AD. This census was under the oversight of the Roman governor Quirinius. (See Josephus, Antiquities 17.355 & 18.1-2).
3. There is no historical record of the Roman Empire requiring people to return to an ancestral city for a census. If fact, this would be counter productive. The Romans were interested in the taxee's assets especially the extent of his property. They didn't care about Jewish ancestry.
4. Luke overlooked the fact that the Quirinius' local census was limited to Judea (and perhaps Syria where Quirinius was governor). Galilee, where Nazareth is located, continued under the rulership (and taxation) of Herod Antipas, another of Herod's sons, until 39 AD. Hence Joseph and Mary would not have been required to register for Quirinius' census of Judea.
5. King Herod died in 4 B.C. Thus if Luke's gospel is correct, Matthew's claim of the King Herod's dialogue with the Magi, the Star of Bethelem, the Slaughter of the Innocent, and the Flight into Egypt are chronologically impossible since King Herod had been dead ten years.
Opinions?
How do you know the Roman Census data was accurate. Modern Education seems to teach that the Roman Census data is not accurate:
All the figures given are problematical, in various ways. First, there is the problem of the correct transmission of numbers in the manuscripts. Second, there is the issue of who precisely are being counted in each census. Third, there is the question as to whether complete census returns were ever made. Most authorities find it difficult to believe that statistics prior to 340 B.C. are anything but fictitious.
Your bible is historically inaccurate and your holiday is in vain! Merry Christmas!
Love,
Ancient Warrior" ?
lol I can just feel the Holiday Spirit! Couldn't you have waited till after Christmas?!! I like the lights, the manger scenes, the presents, and I can tolerate most of the music!!! Just kidding. I'm probably reading too much into it and I'm bored and no one else seems to be answering so far (Edit: Ok someone posted while I was writing this)
There is really no real consensus on the historical birth date of Christ and doubt most of the people here are militant about it being December 25, 0000 ;p I have seen a few possible explanations over the years for the problem above. Here's one I just found: Foundations: Studies in Bible Theology. If I under stand the link correctly, it might be possible that the disarray of Herod's illness and uncertainty of a heir forced a census but I'm not entirely sure how provable that is. I even remember at least one historian who placed Herods Death at 1BC, but I can't remember why at this time. I'm actually kind of glad you brought this us (yeah even before Christmas ) since I haven't studied this in a long time.
Last edited by Jrhockney; 12-17-2011 at 08:16 PM..
Reason: Edited since someone posted while I was writing this
As far as I'm concerned, the bible is NOT a history book. It's a spiritual book. This kind of study has no effect on my faith in Christ. Since you asked for opinions. Same goes for that crazy Old Testament... not a history book.
Both Matthew's and Luke's nativity narratives have problems. But Luke's seems the least historically tenable.
"In those days a decree went out from Emperor Augustus that all the world should be registered. This was the first registration and was taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. All went to their own towns to be registered. Joseph also went from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David calledBethlehem, because he was descended from the house and family of David. He went to be registered with Mary, to whom he was engaged and who was expecting a child. While they were there, the time came forher to deliver her child." (NRSV)
PROBLEMS:
1. Roman universal registrations took place in 28 BC, 8 BC, and 14 AD. There are no records (except for Luke's claim) that such took place in 6 AD.
2. Luke is correct in that a local census of Judea took place when King Herod's son and inheritor, Archelaus, was deposed and banished by the Romans in 6 AD. This census was under the oversight of the Roman governor Quirinius. (See Josephus, Antiquities 17.355 & 18.1-2).
3. There is no historical record of the Roman Empire requiring people to return to an ancestral city for a census. If fact, this would be counter productive. The Romans were interested in the taxee's assets especially the extent of his property. They didn't care about Jewish ancestry.
4. Luke overlooked the fact that the Quirinius' local census was limited to Judea (and perhaps Syria where Quirinius was governor). Galilee, where Nazareth is located, continued under the rulership (and taxation) of Herod Antipas, another of Herod's sons, until 39 AD. Hence Joseph and Mary would not have been required to register for Quirinius' census of Judea.
5. King Herod died in 4 B.C. Thus if Luke's gospel is correct, Matthew's claim of the King Herod's dialogue with the Magi, the Star of Bethelem, the Slaughter of the Innocent, and the Flight into Egypt are chronologically impossible since King Herod had been dead ten years.
Opinions?
The three Gospel Accounts and The Gospel Testimony of Jesus beloved disciple are all 100% accurate. Luke is making no claim in his account of Christ that a census took place in 6 AD...only that a census took place. When this census took place is still open for debate, not the validity of Luke's Gospel Account. You're looking for errors in a place where none exist.
Both Matthew's and Luke's nativity narratives have problems. But Luke's seems the least historically tenable.
"In those days a decree went out from Emperor Augustus that all the world should be registered. This was the first registration and was taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. All went to their own towns to be registered. Joseph also went from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David calledBethlehem, because he was descended from the house and family of David. He went to be registered with Mary, to whom he was engaged and who was expecting a child. While they were there, the time came forher to deliver her child." (NRSV)
PROBLEMS:
1. Roman universal registrations took place in 28 BC, 8 BC, and 14 AD. There are no records (except for Luke's claim) that such took place in 6 AD.
2. Luke is correct in that a local census of Judea took place when King Herod's son and inheritor, Archelaus, was deposed and banished by the Romans in 6 AD. This census was under the oversight of the Roman governor Quirinius. (See Josephus, Antiquities 17.355 & 18.1-2).
3. There is no historical record of the Roman Empire requiring people to return to an ancestral city for a census. If fact, this would be counter productive. The Romans were interested in the taxee's assets especially the extent of his property. They didn't care about Jewish ancestry.
4. Luke overlooked the fact that the Quirinius' local census was limited to Judea (and perhaps Syria where Quirinius was governor). Galilee, where Nazareth is located, continued under the rulership (and taxation) of Herod Antipas, another of Herod's sons, until 39 AD. Hence Joseph and Mary would not have been required to register for Quirinius' census of Judea.
5. King Herod died in 4 B.C. Thus if Luke's gospel is correct, Matthew's claim of the King Herod's dialogue with the Magi, the Star of Bethelem, the Slaughter of the Innocent, and the Flight into Egypt are chronologically impossible since King Herod had been dead ten years.
Opinions?
My opinion is you would do well to look into this a bit deeper. Why?
Several things.
First the word 'taxed' is apographo and means to enroll or to register and this was the first registration to be made. A second is mentioned int Acts 5:37.
Second: Cyrenius is Gr. for the Latin Quirinus. His full name was Publins Sulpicius Quirinus.
v. 3 "every one" &c. A Papyrus [in the British Museum] being a rescript of the Perfect Gauis Vibius Masimus [A.D. 108-4] shows that Herod must have been acting under Roman orders. Vib. Max. was Praefect of Egypt, and wrote; "The enrolement by households being at hand, it is necessary to notify all who for any cause soever are outside their homes to return to their domestic hearths, that they may accomplish the customary dispensation of enrolement, and continue steadfastly in the husbandry that belongeth to them." There is a large number of Papyri relating to these enrolments. See Deissmann's Light from the Ancient East, pp. 268,269
Both Matthew's and Luke's nativity narratives have problems. But Luke's seems the least historically tenable.
"In those days a decree went out from Emperor Augustus that all the world should be registered. This was the first registration and was taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. All went to their own towns to be registered. Joseph also went from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David calledBethlehem, because he was descended from the house and family of David. He went to be registered with Mary, to whom he was engaged and who was expecting a child. While they were there, the time came forher to deliver her child." (NRSV)
PROBLEMS:
1. Roman universal registrations took place in 28 BC, 8 BC, and 14 AD. There are no records (except for Luke's claim) that such took place in 6 AD.
2. Luke is correct in that a local census of Judea took place when King Herod's son and inheritor, Archelaus, was deposed and banished by the Romans in 6 AD. This census was under the oversight of the Roman governor Quirinius. (See Josephus, Antiquities 17.355 & 18.1-2).
3. There is no historical record of the Roman Empire requiring people to return to an ancestral city for a census. If fact, this would be counter productive. The Romans were interested in the taxee's assets especially the extent of his property. They didn't care about Jewish ancestry.
4. Luke overlooked the fact that the Quirinius' local census was limited to Judea (and perhaps Syria where Quirinius was governor). Galilee, where Nazareth is located, continued under the rulership (and taxation) of Herod Antipas, another of Herod's sons, until 39 AD. Hence Joseph and Mary would not have been required to register for Quirinius' census of Judea.
5. King Herod died in 4 B.C. Thus if Luke's gospel is correct, Matthew's claim of the King Herod's dialogue with the Magi, the Star of Bethelem, the Slaughter of the Innocent, and the Flight into Egypt are chronologically impossible since King Herod had been dead ten years.
Opinions?
The information you present as PROBLEMS are only problems because they are not factual. There is no historical concensus that the information you present is accurate.
Just look at point 5, your opening premise is that Herod died in 4 B.C.E. That is not a FACT. There are many different versions of history that support the conclusion he died in 1 B.C.E
There is really no point to discuss these 5 statements since the comparative history you want to use for analysis of Biblical chronology is not authoritative.
The information you present as PROBLEMS are only problems because they are not factual. There is no historical concensus that the information you present is accurate.
Just look at point 5, your opening premise is that Herod died in 4 B.C.E. That is not a FACT. There are many different versions of history that support the conclusion he died in 1 B.C.E
There is really no point to discuss these 5 statements since the comparative history you want to use for analysis of Biblical chronology is not authoritative.
His evaluation is very bad analysis for he didn't present any data to prove the Roman Census information that he specified was accurate or to be trusted.
His evaluation is very bad analysis for he didn't present any data to prove the Roman Census information that he specified was accurate or to be trusted.
Agreed, the statements are assumed and presented as factual, but in reality they are just speculative, and contradicted by many other authoritative historical resources.
All the figures given are problematical, in various ways. First, there is the problem of the correct transmission of numbers in the manuscripts. Second, there is the issue of who precisely are being counted in each census. Third, there is the question as to whether complete census returns were ever made. Most authorities find it difficult to believe that statistics prior to 340 B.C. are anything but fictitious.
RESPONSE:
Please note that the numbers counted but not the dates of the censuses are questioned. We are only interested in the dates, not the numbers.
Luke was in error. The only census in 6 AD was a local census conducted of Judea when it ceased to be a client kingdom and came under direct Roman rule.
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Just kidding. I'm probably reading too much into it and I'm bored and no one else seems to be answering so far (Edit: Ok someone posted while I was writing this) 
) since I haven't studied this in a long time.
The Lord is Risen!!!
