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Traditions and ritual indeed have beautiful meanings but they are not relational as in knowing God first hand by His Spirit, like you know your children, wife or girlfriend perhaps. The real thing is always more rewarding than let's say a picture of them or a letter from them.
I respectfully disagree:
I think the experience of "knowing God" is much greater with a beautiful ancient rite. Knowing God while listening to a beautiful rendition of either Bach or Schubert's Ave Maria is a truly mystic experience.
I also had mystic experiences visiting the great Catholic Shrines across Europe. The exquisite attention to detail is inspiring and tells me the folks from that era were true Christians.
I saw La Pietat in the Vatican and it is inspiring.
I cannot understand why some Protestants are against this stuff. I assume you guys would never visit Rome or Florence.
I would love to go to Rio de Janeiro to see the Cristo
And yes! I want to see The Virgin when I go to church. It is part of the relationship with God.
I think the experience of "knowing God" is much greater with a beautiful ancient rite. Knowing God while listening to a beautiful rendition of either Bach or Schubert's Ave Maria is a truly mystic experience.
I also had mystic experiences visiting the great Catholic Shrines across Europe. The exquisite attention to detail is inspiring and tells me the folks from that era were true Christians.
I saw La Pietat in the Vatican and it is inspiring.
I cannot understand why some Protestants are against this stuff. I assume you guys would never visit Rome or Florence.
I would love to go to Rio de Janeiro to see the Cristo
And yes! I want to see The Virgin when I go to church. It is part of the relationship with God.
CIAO
I am sure I might enjoy all that and they do speak a story to the heart that you call mystic and that too comes from God but I don't think mystic is what Jesus had in mind when He said the Spirit would guide us into all Truth by the Spirit of Truth. So enjoy it, as I would too but their is much more to what I have been trying to say but the Kingdom is not in word alone but in the Power of the Mind of Christ that comes from the rebirth or regeneration as some call it. May God guide you in your search. Good evening.
I am sure I might enjoy all that and they do speak a story to the heart that you call mystic but I don't think mystic is what Jesus had in mind when He said the Spirit would guide us into all Truth by the Spirit of Truth. So enjoy it, as I would too but their is much more to what I have been trying to say but the Kingdom is not in word alone but in the Power of the Mind of Christ that comes from the rebirth or regeneration as some call it. May God guide you in your search. Good evening.
Truthfully, I think the relationship with Jesus is more rewarding within a traditional setting. What is wrong with burning incense? Why not have a full celebration with all the bells and whistles? Why negate the things that enhances our human condition and facilitate our mystic moment?
Truthfully, I think the relationship with Jesus is more rewarding within a traditional setting. What is wrong with burning incense? Why not have a full celebration with all the bells and whistles? Why negate the things that enhances our human condition and facilitate our mystic moment?
I like incense and I like good religious art so maybe I am not talking to you at all if you have already have a firm relation to Jesus but rather to others who are reading this dialogue who's only attachment to God is to those things. As Jesus said, If through Him we cleanse the inside then all things are pure.
I like incense and I like good religious art so maybe I am not talking to you at all if you have already have a firm relation to Jesus but rather to others who are reading this dialogue who's only attachment to God is to those things. As Jesus said, cleanse the inside and all things are pure.
If you spend a lot of time with Catholics you would soon realized they are not pagans even when they say the "Hail Mary".
If you never knew a Catholic and you grew up with anti catholic dogma you would surely think Catholics are pagan.
The church is based on Jesus, the father and the holy spirit. Everything else is icing on the cake.
You need to study the Creed:
Quote:
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten , not made, one in Being
with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified
under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son
he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic
and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism
for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
Thank you so much for your post. It explains a whole lot. This may come as a surprise to you, but I agree with most of what you said.
Thanks for thinking I'm young. Oh how I wish!! I am actually a retired school teacher (math 7th grade). I am currently doing a long term sub for the gal who took my place when I retired. She just had a baby. So I'm back in the classroom for the next 4-6 weeks.
I was born and raised catholic. I went to catholic school, and was taught catholic doctrine throughout my childhood. I have always had a facination and love for God's word. When I left home, I began reading the Bible and discovered on my own many discrepancies between God's word and what I'd been taught in my youth. I can honestly say that I was never a disgruntled catholic. I just reached a point in my life where I had to make a choice. Believe the doctrines/traditions of the catholic church or believe the word of God. They are soooooooooo different.
I hope I never come across on the forum as a know it all, or as an I have all of the answers, because I don't. I am still learning, and there is nothing I love more than learning God's word. I try hard not to be condescending on the forum. If I ever come across that way, please do let me know. I will always cite scriptures to support what I say, otherwise I am giving nothing but my opinion.
You said there is more history besides catholic history. WOW!! You are so right about that. I have been delving into early church history, and it is facinating.
Sorry for assuming you were catholic. My bad! It was just the impression I had from reading one of your posts.
By the way, I know many wonderful catholic folks. Some are in my family. But no matter which way you cut it, their religion is wrong. It goes against the word of God in so many ways. Unlike you, I do believe that the Bible is God's ispired, infallible word. We cannot pick and choose verses we like, and then ignore the rest. Either we accept it all, or throw it all out, otherwise everything becomes chaos, and everyone does what they want to do. That is not the way it was intended by Jesus. He wanted us to be ONE. He wanted UNITY.
Anyway.......
Hope we can be friends. I would love to continue hearing your thoughts.
God Bless You,
Katie
Ha, maybe I am just feeling older these days, and everyone else looks young!
We won't agree on what the Bible is, then. I don't think it's all or nothing, and I don't think the Catholic religion is "wrong" and any other Christian denomination, or no denomination at all, is "right". There are only people.
But I do agree with you on the sentence I underlined. Hopefully someday that will come.
Let's say someone wrote these words 100 years ago:
"I never said you stole money."
Anyone you asked would say they understood the meaning of that short, six word sentence. But do they? Do they really understand what meaning the writer intended 100 years ago?
The writer of that sentence might have meant "I never said you stole money", implying someone else said it.
Or perhaps he meant "I never said you stole money." He thought it, he suspected it, but he never said it.
Or maybe "I never said you stole money." He said your neighbor stole it.
Or, "I never said you stole money." He means that you lost it, or squandered it, or did something else with it that he didn't approve of, but you didn't steal it.
Or, "I never said you stole money." Maybe you stole his horse, or shoes, not his money.
This shows how easy it is to derive several legitimate but very different meanings from this short, six word sentence. Think how easily the Bible can be misinterpreted.
There is only one truth. People misinterpret God's word when they don't like what the truth is. We see it all the time. Talk to any homosexual. They have a totally different view of what they think the Bible says about the topic. Then there's divorce. That gets "misinterpreted" also.
When it comes to what we must do to receive eternal life, the Bible makes it crystal clear. It's the same with what God would have us do to live a good christian life.
The Bible is not difficult to understand. The problem is that people rebel against its truths.
Ha, maybe I am just feeling older these days, and everyone else looks young!
We won't agree on what the Bible is, then. I don't think it's all or nothing, and I don't think the Catholic religion is "wrong" and any other Christian denomination, or no denomination at all, is "right". There are only people.
But I do agree with you on the sentence I underlined. Hopefully someday that will come.
God bless you, too.
I have been reading a lot of early church history up to 325. Very facinating stuff. Unity really stands out. It was important to the early church that they continue in the apostle's doctrine, which was Jesus' doctrine. There is no Pope or Bishop of Rome in the second century. There are pluralities of elders in the local churches. The apostle Peter considered himself one of the elders, plural.
You cannot read the Bible without coming away with the idea that there was one church, and it was established by Jesus Christ. The apostles planted congregations everywhere, and they were all of one mind.
Former Catholics do not see the church with good eyes.
I will also admit that Catholicism does not work for some folks. So I am happy you found Jesus elsewhere.
I did not find Jesus elsewhere. I've had Him with me my entire life, since I can remember. The thing that changed for me was learning truth as opposed to lies.
Your comment about former catholics not seeing the church with good eyes is actually laughable. Do you by chance think you have some inside info that former catholics don't have? Or maybe you think former catholics are uneducated? I would suggest to you that it is simply a matter of a person choosing God's word over the doctrines of men. That is how it was for me anyway.
Julian, I have to say thanks to you for my renewed interest in ante nicene church history. It is very facinating. I have been reading Polycarp, Ignatius, and others. I am not finding a pope in the second century. I see pluralities of elders in the local congregations. Peter referred to himself as one of the elders. Thoughts?
I did not find Jesus elsewhere. I've had Him with me my entire life, since I can remember. The thing that changed for me was learning truth as opposed to lies.
Your comment about former catholics not seeing the church with good eyes is actually laughable. Do you by chance think you have some inside info that former catholics don't have? Or maybe you think former catholics are uneducated? I would suggest to you that it is simply a matter of a person choosing God's word over the doctrines of men. That is how it was for me anyway.
Julian, I have to say thanks to you for my renewed interest in ante nicene church history. It is very facinating. I have been reading Polycarp, Ignatius, and others. I am not finding a pope in the second century. I see pluralities of elders in the local congregations. Peter referred to himself as one of the elders. Thoughts?
God Bless,
Katie
Katie:
So you already had Jesus in your heart when you were a Catholic? I am glad we did something right.
I am thrilled you are immersed in the history of the church. The history of Christianity is fascinating and in the end very important for Western civilization. The so-called Apostolic Age in the 1st century is important because the simple Christian doctrine of "GOODNESS" made a lot of sense to the converts. The message of Christianity was very different and just. Nevertheless, the early Christians were considered Pagans by the Romans.
The Protestants always say Peter was not the Pope. Because there is not a lot of evidence he was in Rome. However, is has been said that Jesus called Peter the rock and The catholic church interpreted this bible passage as evidence that the 1st leader of the church was Peter.
Quote:
"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it," (Matt. 16:18).
Nevertheless, I believe it is a moot point because in those days the church was not the massive institution it became several centuries later.
Quote:
The Papal Basilica of Saint Peter (Latin: Basilica Sancti Petri), officially known in Italian as Basilica Papale di San Pietro in Vaticano and commonly known as Saint Peter's Basilica, is a Late Renaissance church located within the Vatican City. Saint Peter's Basilica has the largest interior of any Christian church in the world.[1] While it is neither the official mother church of the Roman Catholic Church nor the cathedral of the Pope as Bishop of Rome, Saint Peter's is regarded as one of the holiest Catholic sites. It has been described as "holding a unique position in the Christian world"[2] and as "the greatest of all churches of Christendom".[3]
In Roman Catholic tradition, the basilica is the burial site of its namesake Saint Peter, who was one of the twelve apostles of Jesus and, according to tradition, the first Bishop of Rome and therefore first in the line of the papal succession. Tradition and some historical evidence hold that Saint Peter's tomb is directly below the altar of the basilica. For this reason, many Popes have been interred at St. Peter's since the Early Christian period. There has been a church on this site since the 4th century. Construction of the present basilica, over the old Constantinian basilica, began on 18 April 1506 and was completed on 18 November 1626.[4]
WIKI
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