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Similarly, the term "Christian" is only used once in scripture, by King Herod Agrippa, a pagan -- so, by the same logic, Christian's likewise, do not exist.
I've really grown weary of the tendancy of those who promote Universal Reconcilliation to isolate a few scriptures, interpret them as they wish ... and ignore the rest. Oh yes, and then to characterize any who do not ignore the rest of scripture as "ET'rs" or somehow favoring 'eternal torment'. So, though I'll regret it, let me once again get 'sucked-into' the UR debate.
I would love to believe that everyone will be saved, if that is what scripture said, but, it doesn't! In the 30-years of preaching/teaching the Bible (expository), I've never seen UR ... But, I have seen hundreds of teachings to the contrary. God is a God of Love and desires for ALL to come to repentance (and Salvation)', BUT, that's not going to happen -- and "the Day of the Lord WILL come as a thief in the night."
So, what is my concern? Why not just live and let live? ... or agree to disagree? -- The problem is that when these divisive doctrines are preached/taught as absolute fact, they lead weak or non-Christians to believe that nothing beyond 'living on earth' is necessary to eternal Salvation and heaven (Faith, the Bible, Jesus Christ, etc. are all just 'window dressing). "Predestination" can be twisted in a similar fashion. In any case, if I am wrong, then praise God for His perfect way ... and I've lost nothing .... BUT, if they enter eternity without a saving faith in Jesus Christ, they have lost EVERYTHING! --- Those seem like pretty high stakes to me!
Agreed that of course, no way is everyone saved.
Jesus was a fisherman AND a "fisher OF men." He of course throws some back.
This fire was long ago extinguished, and yet it was "never to go out."
The fire that is ever burning and shall not be quenched has long since expired.
Expired? The wicked are not even in the fire yet. They will be cast there during the judgement day, so it is a future event. The same passage also talks about the creation of new heavens and new earth, and they are all future events. You have created your own religion.
I believe that some are chosen to be His elect, but Jesus was made heir of all. All were given to Him and He is to subject all to Himself so that God may be all in all. (Hebrews 1, 1 Cor. 15)
God bless.
Expired? The wicked are not even in the fire yet. They will be cast there during the judgement day, so it is a future event. The same passage also talks about the creation of new heavens and new earth, and they are all future events. You have created your own religion.
I shared this to show that fires which are said to never go out, expire. God has also said that He will make all things new (Rev. 21)
No, I haven't created my own religion, Finn. I believe that God will reconcile all to Himself through Jesus and share scriptural support for this belief. Many believers/Christians in the early church believed this, as do many today. God bless.
Romans 8
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, [i]in* hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
[LEFT]Just sharing to show that this belief is not some new religion. Many leaders in the early church held them.WE don't even know how many did not believe in eternal hell because of many taught hell to control the masses of people
The mass of men (Christians) say there is to be an end to punishment and to those who are punished.—St. Basil the Great
There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments. -- Augustine (354-430 A.D.)
For the wicked there are punishments, not perpetural, however, lest the immortality prepared for them should be a disadvantage, but they are to be purified for a brief period according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness having no end awaits them...the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave sins are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed to them. --Diodore of Tarsus, 320-394 A.D.
And God showed great kindness to man, in this, that He did not suffer him to continue being in sin forever; but as it were, by a kind of banishement, cast him out of paradise in order that, having punishment expiated within an appointed time, and having been disciplined, he should afterwards be recalled...just as a vessel, when one being fashioned it has some flaw, is remoulded or remade that it may become new and entire; so also it happens to man by death. For he is broken up by force, that in the resurrection he may be found whole; I mean spotless, righteous and immortal. --Theophilus of Antioch (168 A.D.)
These, if they will, may go Christ's way, but if not let them go their way. In another place perhaps they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism, which is not only painful, but enduring also; which eats up, as if it were hay, all defiled matter, and consumes all vanity and vice. --Gregory of Nazianzeu, Bishop of Constantinople. (330 to 390 A.D.)
In the end and consummation of the Universe all are to be restored into their original harmonious state, and we all shall be made one body and be united once more into a perfect man and the prayer of our Savior shall be fulfilled that all may be one. --St. Jerome, 331-420
For it is evident that God will in truth be all in all when there shall be no evil in existence, when every created being is at harmony with iteself and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; when every creature shall have been made one body. --Gregory of Nyssa, 335-390
The wicked who have committed evil the whole period of their lives shall be punished till they learn that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when, by this means, they shall have been brought to fear God, and to regard Him with good will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of His grace. --Theodore of Mopsuestia, 350-428
We can set no limits to the agency of the Redeemer to redeem, to rescue, to discipline in his work, and so will he continue to operate after this life. –Clement of Alexandria
Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless eons (apeirou aionas) in Tartarus. Very properly, the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. But we say that the soul is punished for an aionion period (aionios) calling its life and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon. --Olnmpiodorus (AD 550)
I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures. --St. Jerome
Our Lord is the One who delivers man [all men], and who heals the inventor of evil himself. -- Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church
While the devil thought to kill One [Christ], he is deprived of all those cast out of hades, and he [the devil] sitting by the gates, sees all fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Saviour.--Athanasius, the Great Father of Orthodoxy
Our Lord descends, and was shut up in the eternal bars, in order that He might set free all who had been shut up... The Lord descended to the place of punishment and torment, in which was the rich man, in order to liberate the prisoners. --Jerome
God bless.[/LEFT]
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-21-2012 at 05:32 PM..
You said the fires are already expired, when in fact it is a future event. It is clear you make it up as you go in order to support your universalist views.
"Lev. vi: 12-13, "And the fire upon the altar shall be burning in it; it shall not be put out: and the priest shall burn wood on it every morning, and lay the burnt offering in order upon it; and he shall burn thereon the fat of the peace offerings. The fire shall ever be burning upon the altar; it shall never go out."
This fire was long ago extinguished, and yet it was "never to go out."
So we read in Isa. xxxiv:9-10, "And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up forever; from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever."
The fire that is ever burning and shall not be quenched has long since expired.
And I shared that some words that have been translated as eternal, forever, unquenchable, incurable, for example, do not mean an everlasting condition. God bless.
You said the fires are already expired, when in fact it is a future event. You made it up, and then tried to defend it by comparing it to a man made fire in a Jewish temple
If you are speaking of the passages that I shared, many believe that this has already occurred in Edom and I understand that some believe that it refers to future judgments on the enemies of Israel. All of these instances, I believe, refer to God's judgments on nations but does not refer to an eternal hell. God bless.
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