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Hi Lee, thanks for your thoughtful post. Just a quick note on this verse which is repeatedly used to support the idea of works being burned up, but no eternal consequence for the actual person.... I have been thinking this verse over a lot lately, and I think it is taken out of its context to teach something it doesn't. In the context of 1 Corinthians 1-3, it seems evident that Paul is not talking about every Christian and their good or bad works here. He is talking about ministers of the gospel, apostles, and others who are working to lay foundations and building on them in the church. I have wondered if the wood, hay and stubble as well as the more enduring elements are actually people within the church ("we are God's building"... not sure if Paul would have intended it that way!) or perhaps just the general work of instilling teaching in the church. In either event, this is not a good passage to generalize about a Christian's good works/bad works and rewards or loss of rewards. That would really take the meaning away from other Scriptures which talk about heeding our conduct because of the coming judgment which is according to works. Furthermore, Paul himself abhorred the twisted concept of "grace as a license to sin", and that is pretty much exactly what such a view leads to, in spite of many saying that rewards should motivate us to good works. These are my thoughts on this passage after a few days' consideration... What do you think?
This mistaken view is the result of thinking we are ALL one thing or the other depending on our most recent encounter with sin. Verna (God love her) sincerely believes a single act of "willful" (what other kind is there?) sin corrupts our entire life of Spirit development. Steph seems to believe we are treated differently depending on our status (ministers, apostles, etc.) despite the fact that God is no respecter of persons. The reality as I see it . . . is that we are a cumulative "composite" of our attitudes and "works" over our entire lifetime including good, evil and neutral aspects of our character. We are NOT any one aspect . . . so when the unacceptable parts (impurities) are "refined" away . . . we are what is left . . . "saved as if by fire."
Hi Lee, thanks for your thoughtful post. Just a quick note on this verse which is repeatedly used to support the idea of works being burned up, but no eternal consequence for the actual person.... I have been thinking this verse over a lot lately, and I think it is taken out of its context to teach something it doesn't. In the context of 1 Corinthians 1-3, it seems evident that Paul is not talking about every Christian and their good or bad works here. He is talking about ministers of the gospel, apostles, and others who are working to lay foundations and building on them in the church. I have wondered if the wood, hay and stubble as well as the more enduring elements are actually people within the church ("we are God's building"... not sure if Paul would have intended it that way!) or perhaps just the general work of instilling teaching in the church. In either event, this is not a good passage to generalize about a Christian's good works/bad works and rewards or loss of rewards. That would really take the meaning away from other Scriptures which talk about heeding our conduct because of the coming judgment which is according to works. Furthermore, Paul himself abhorred the twisted concept of "grace as a license to sin", and that is pretty much exactly what such a view leads to, in spite of many saying that rewards should motivate us to good works. These are my thoughts on this passage after a few days' consideration... What do you think?
Steph
Well here's the two foundational passages (no pun intended).
Matthew 7
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
1 Corinthians 3
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(He then continues)
16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
The context is Paul saying he planted (Word of God), Apollos watered (preached?), with God being the source of all growth/fruit. So these are people that are doing God's will led by faith. Which is exactly what the Lord says in Matthew 7. He also says you will know Christians by their fruits (choices they make).
Also note 1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
So "him" could be translated "this" (as in the temple) not the soul God will destroy? The Partaker View states one is redeemed alone by atoning blood (Passover delivered out of Egypt) into the Wilderness (this age) with those that are disinherited (Numbers 13,14 incident) could lose their physical lives but still be saved from Perdition due to God's faithfulness to his Word (passed from death to life)
There's evidence that the KJV version has a lot of cultural influence at the time (translating "Easter"(Acts 12:4) as opposed to "Passover" as well as talking about horses, swords, etc...) So the Arminian/Calvanist influence could have been on the translators as they translated Greek to English. Just something I've noticed - not saying they're wrong necesarily.
We've had a real tough time understanding God's "free gift" of Grace. I don't think most Christian are using this as liscense to sin, but are concerned of misrepresenting the giver in his demonstration for his love for us. Moses was commanded to speak to the rock but hit it giving the impression God was angry. (Numbers 28) He didn't enter the Promise Land. He was surely saved though . God buried Moses himself.
Romans 11
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
I think there is some confusion with what is a "work". If we're working for it, than it's not grace Paul points out. He goes on to suggest that if we are "working" in attempts to earn grace than it's "no more work". I guess this means these works go into the burn pile at the Judgement Seat of Christ. So if we're out doing a bunch of good things thinking we are in greater favor before God increasing our chances of getting into heaven(intent of the heart) as opposed to testimony of God's Grace, it is taking away from HIS work on the cross. There is no respect of persons with God. (Romans 2:11) But what about bad "works">>Sin, Rebellion, Disbelief, etc...?
Is the "Obedience of Faith" a "Work"? I do believe it's a requirement. A noticeable response (fruit) to the gospel is required I believe. Conversion is a circumcision of the Heart. The Heart manifests itself its faith in Spirit-led works/choices.
Proverbs 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
I believe "faith" is defined well in Hebrews 11.
"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." Hebrews 11:7
Noah believed God and his actions reflected it. There's a long list of persons (Abraham, Jacob, etc) that weren't sinless, but they responded to God's declaration through obedience of faith. These are the people the Lord said would be inside the Kingdom while others he didn't know that practiced iniquity would be thrust out - a clear warning to not living out the word in faith in a relationship in the Creator Messiah Jesus.
We want the Lord to liken us unto a wise person not a foolish one.
Last edited by Mikelee81; 01-26-2012 at 09:20 AM..
This mistaken view is the result of thinking we are ALL one thing or the other depending on our most recent encounter with sin. Verna (God love her) sincerely believes a single act of "willful" (what other kind is there?) sin corrupts our entire life of Spirit development. Steph seems to believe we are treated differently depending on our status (ministers, apostles, etc.) despite the fact that God is no respecter of persons. The reality as I see it . . . is that we are a cumulative "composite" of our attitudes and "works" over our entire lifetime including good, evil and neutral aspects of our character. We are NOT any one aspect . . . so when the unacceptable parts (impurities) are "refined" away . . . we are what is left . . . "saved as if by fire."
Hi there, actually what I was saying is that the 'work' of building the church is not the same as the 'works' for which we (including the apostles etc, and the lost too!) will be judged, according to 2 Cor 5:10 and many other places in the New Testament. Why is it that we would rather offend Martin Luther and the beloved but - dare i suggest? - faulty understanding of faith alone, rather than offend the apostle Paul who laid it out for us! God's grace is not the same as His mercy! How does your definition of grace instruct you to live holy in this present age? By faith we have ENTERED INTO this grace in which we stand! All I am reading here are reasons to continue in sin, denying the power wherewith we are delivered from the power of sin!!
Can someone please tell me, please, sincerely, because I am honestly seeking here why we are told to conduct ourselves in fear during our stay on earth in light of the coming judgment if we actually have no cause for fear?? And it better be a sensible answer, not one that denies half the new testament teaching about what grace does for a believer.
Hi there, actually what I was saying is that the 'work' of building the church is not the same as the 'works' for which we (including the apostles etc, and the lost too!) will be judged, according to 2 Cor 5:10 and many other places in the New Testament. Why is it that we would rather offend Martin Luther and the beloved but - dare i suggest? - faulty understanding of faith alone, rather than offend the apostle Paul who laid it out for us! God's grace is not the same as His mercy! How does your definition of grace instruct you to live holy in this present age? By faith we have ENTERED INTO this grace in which we stand! All I am reading here are reasons to continue in sin, denying the power wherewith we are delivered from the power of sin!!
No one is denying the need to live in "love of God and each other" daily. It is impossible to sin if we do so. It is failure of that love to direct our behavior that produces sin. Think of every sin or evil and you will realize that it contains a failure to love. Our task on earth is NOT to be obedient Nazis to a tyrant God's rules . . . but to let "love of God and each other" direct our behavior and attitudes.
Quote:
Can someone please tell me, please, sincerely, because I am honestly seeking here why we are told to conduct ourselves in fear during our stay on earth in light of the coming judgment if we actually have no cause for fear?? And it better be a sensible answer, not one that denies half the new testament teaching about what grace does for a believer.
Thank you so much.
Stephanie
Your sincerity and honesty is obvious, Steph. Fear is the motivation used with feral animals in the early stage of their training (schoolmaster). Our savage ancient ancestors were more feral animal than human, so fear of God was their beginning of wisdom in achieving control over their behaviors. Love is a more effective and all-encompassing motivator that was supposed to replace fear as we evolved and matured spiritually as a species. The religious leaders had another agenda . . . so they retained and promoted the fear motivation by adding fear of eternal torment to the mix. There is nothing to fear from our loving God, period.
No one is denying the need to live in "love of God and each other" daily. It is impossible to sin if we do so. It is failure of that love to direct our behavior that produces sin. Think of every sin or evil and you will realize that it contains a failure to love. Our task on earth is NOT to be obedient Nazis to a tyrant God's rules . . . but to let "love of God and each other" direct our behavior and attitudes. Your sincerity and honesty is obvious, Steph. Fear is the motivation used with feral animals in the early stage of their training (schoolmaster). Our savage ancient ancestors were more feral animal than human, so fear of God was their beginning of wisdom in achieving control over their behaviors. Love is a more effective and all-encompassing motivator that was supposed to replace fear as we evolved and matured spiritually as a species. The religious leaders had another agenda . . . so they retained and promoted the fear motivation by adding fear of eternal torment to the mix. There is nothing to fear from our loving God, period.
Hi mystic, thank you so much for your reply to me. I got a little impassioned . I do have two questions on the back of your response... Firstly, I agree with what you said about loving God and loving one another, and about sin being traced back to a lack of love.. Why is the love of so many within the church cold and why are we sinning and not taking it seriously?
Secondly, I also agree that fear is not the preferred motivator, but love from a pure heart. Nevertheless, fear is given as a reason to walk in holy conduct in the Scripture. Why is this dismissed by most people in the church? I am not meaning to point any fingers... This morning I was on my knees before God as I was convicted of my own shortcoming. But why have I grown up believing and never questioning that I will get to heaven no matter how I live (even though I have believed from a young age and never doubted that Jesus died and rose again).
Ritual sacrifice is a barbaric practice from deep within ancient human pre-history. It is depressing that any modern civilized mind would embrace it (or accept it as the explanation for Christ's crucifixion).
Stephanie use discernment concerning the sources of information on these forums.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
We are saved from the 'just' wages of (unforgiven) sin, to eternal life in relationship with God.
"Wages" are not a penalty, but, rather, a consequence. (eg; one would not say that the 'wages' from their job were either a gift or a punishment ... but, can only declare them "earned")
"Sin" is not individual acts of sin or law-breaking, but, rather, a heart level rebellion against God ... characterized by the rejection of His 'sin payment on our behalf' -- the perfect life of Jesus Christ!
We cannot pay the 'wages of sin' with our own sin-filled life ... therefore, we must (and can only) embrace/appropriate/claim the 'payment' by Christ on our behalf.
We are saved from the 'just' wages of (unforgiven) sin, to eternal life in relationship with God.
"Wages" are not a penalty, but, rather, a consequence. (eg; one would not say that the 'wages' from their job were either a gift or a punishment ... but, can only declare them "earned")
"Sin" is not individual acts of sin or law-breaking, but, rather, a heart level rebellion against God ... characterized by the rejection of His 'sin payment on our behalf' -- the perfect life of Jesus Christ!
We cannot pay the 'wages of sin' with our own sin-filled life ... therefore, we must (and can only) embrace/appropriate/claim the 'payment' by Christ on our behalf.
Stephanie use discernment concerning the sources of information on these forums.
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