Was the Old Testament written by stupid, primitive, ignorant savages??? (Gospels, hell)
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Hi guys. I'm Moses.
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David and Bathsheba posing for a portrait.
Some people make the claim that the writers of the Old Testament misunderstood what God was saying to them and misrepresented God in the Scriptures.
These people will say that the way God is presented in the Old Testament paints Him as an evil God.
But then they will turn around and tell you that hell and eternal punishment are not found in the Old Testament.
They will tell you that Jesus came to correct the Old Testament depiction of God.
But Jesus spoke of hell more than any of the writers of Scripture!!!
Is God misrepresented in the Old Testament? Let's see what is said about Him there!
Exodus 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
God is said to be merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth. A misrepresentation of God???
Numbers 14:18 The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.'
God is said to be slow to anger, abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving and just. Was God misunderstood???
Deuteronomy 4:31"For the LORD your God is a compassionate God; He will not fail you nor destroy you nor forget the covenant with your fathers which He swore to them.
God is compassonate, unfailing, and faithful in His promises. Did the writer misunderstand God when he wrote this?
1 Chron 16:34 'O give thanks to the LORD, for He is good; For His lovingkindness is everlasting.
Good with everlasting lovingkindness.
2 Chron 20:21 'When he had consulted with the people, he appointed those who sang to the LORD and those who praised Him in holy attire, as they went out before the army and said, "Give thanks to the LORD, for His lovingkindness is everlasting."
More of God's everlasting lovingkindness.
Ezra 3:11 'They sang, praising and giving thanks to the LORD, saying, "For He is good, for His lovingkindness is upon Israel forever." And all the people shouted with a great shout when they praised the LORD because the foundation of the house of the LORD was laid.
God is said to be good and having lovingkindness forever.
Nehemiah 9:17 "They refused to listen, And did not remember Your wondrous deeds which You had performed among them; So they became stubborn and appointed a leader to return to their slavery in Egypt. But You are a God of forgiveness, Gracious and compassionate, Slow to anger and abounding in lovingkindness; And You did not forsake them.
Another writer presenting God as being forgiving, gracious, compassonate, as well as slow to anger, abounding in lovingkindness, and faithful.
Psalm 45:7 'You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows.
God is said to love righteousness and hate wickedness.
Psalm 86:5 'For You, Lord, are good, and ready to forgive, And abundant in lovingkindness to all who call upon You.
God is good, ready to forgive, and abundant in lovingkindness.
Psalm 108:4 'For Your lovingkindness is great above the heavens, And Your truth reaches to the skies.
Lovingkindness and truthful!!!
Joel 2:13 'And rend your heart and not your garments." Now return to the LORD your God, For He is gracious and compassionate, Slow to anger, abounding in lovingkindness And relenting of evil.
More of the same from yet another writer.
Jeremiah 31:3 'The LORD appeared to him from afar, saying, "I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness.
God is said to have loved with an everlasting love.
So it is seen that thoughout the Old Testament God is understood to be merciful, gracious, longsuffering, kind, abundant in goodness and truth, compassionate, loving, unfailing and faithful, forgiving and just, slow to anger, and loving righteousness.
How does this compare with the New Testament?
Rom 1:18 'For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
1 John 4:10 'In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
An honest reading shows that God is the same in both the Old and New Testament.
Some people would have you believe so.
Some people make the claim that the writers of the Old Testament misunderstood what God was saying to them and misrepresented God in the Scriptures.These people will say that the way God is presented in the Old Testament paints Him as an evil God.
But then they will turn around and tell you that hell and eternal punishment are not found in the Old Testament.
Hell as Eternal Torment is self-defeating and implausible. No functioning intellect could ever credit it as reasonable or even justifiable without strong indoctrination. That the OT was "written by ignorant primitive savages" is incontrovertible . . . but it is NOT as you attempt to portray it. It means that the cultural ignorance, savage traditional beliefs about blood sacrifice and appeasement, idioms and superstitions cast a veil over the writings that paints an erroneous picture of God. This makes the Evil attributed to Him acceptable to those who read the OT indiscriminately. This does NOT mean that EVERYTHING they recorded is wrong, Mike!!! What is it with literalist fundies anyway . . . always with the black or white, all or nothing, indiscriminate applicability to EVERYTHING approach! It may be easier on the intellect but it is not intelligent or wise. We were given the ability to think and reason and discriminate among good and evil for a purpose, Mike. You should try to use it more often.
God IS the same.Mike . . . but the descriptions of His nature differ enormously in the OT from what Christ revealed in the NT and displayed unambiguously through His life, teaching and gruesome death with complete forgiveness and love. There was no smiting or crushing of His enemies . . . NOTHING like the war God of the Israelites. The lame excuse that He will come back differently is just that . . . a lame attempt to justify belief in the vengeful war God of the OT ordering the merciless extermination of men, women and children of the enemies of Moses, et al. It is a vile belief that fosters evil and hatred between people in the mistaken idea that only some of us are chosen or elect and the rest are garbage and evil spawn of the devil. What is worse is that they are rejected for not believing the right things . . . a vain and ridiculous motive for an Almighty God!!!
Last edited by MysticPhD; 03-04-2012 at 06:18 PM..
Hell as Eternal Torment is self-defeating and implausible. No functioning intellect could ever credit it as reasonable or even justifiable without strong indoctrination. That the OT was "written by ignorant primitive savages" is incontrovertible . . . but it is NOT as you attempt to portray it. It means that the cultural ignorance, traditional beliefs about blood sacrifice and appeasement, idioms and superstitions cast a veil over the writings that paints an erroneous picture of God. This makes the Evil attributed to Him acceptable to those who read the OT indiscriminately. This does NOT mean that EVERYTHING they recorded is wrong, Mike!!! What is it with literalist fundies anyway . . . always with the black or white, all or nothing, indiscriminate applicability to EVERYTHING approach! It may be easier on the intellect but it is not intelligent or wise. We were given the ability to think and reason and discriminate among good and evil for a purpose, Mike. You should try to use it more often.
God IS the same.Mike . . . but the descriptions of His nature differ enormously in the OT from what Christ revealed in the NT and displayed unambiguously through His life, teaching and gruesome death with complete forgiveness and love. There was no smiting or crushing of His enemies . . . NOTHING like the war God of the Israelites. The lame excuse that He will come back differently is just that . . . a lame attempt to justify belief in the vengeful war God of the OT ordering the merciless extermination of men, women and children of the enemies of Moses, et al. It is a vile belief that fosters evil and hatred between people in the mistaken idea that only some of us are chosen or elect and the rest are garbage and evil spawn of the devil.
Here is the first thing that Jesus Christ will do when He returns at the end of the Tribulation.
Revelation 19: 11. And I saw heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True; and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
12] And His eyes are a flame of fire, and upon His head are many diadems; and He has a name written upon Him which no one knows except Himself.
13] And He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood; and His name is called The Word of God.
14] And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine lined, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
15] And in His mouth comes a sharp sharp sword, so that with it He might smite the nations; and He will rule them with a rod of iron, and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
16] And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, ''King of Kings, and Lord of lords.''
17] And I saw an angel standing n the sun; and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in mid-heaven, ''Come, assemble for the great supper of God;
18] in order that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.''
19] And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat upon the horse, and against His army.
Then comes the judgment of the nations and the baptism of fire, in which every unbeliever left alive on the earth will be thrown off the earth and into the eternal fire (Matthew 25:41).
Jesus Christ came as the Lamb of God during His First Advent for the purpose of going to the cross and dying for the sins of the world.
Jesus Christ comes at the end of the Tribulation as the lion of Judah to set up His Millennial kingdom.
Jesus is presented to us by God with "this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased" , why was God well pleased with Jesus ?. Because by the Life within him, he represented all that He(God)is in reality.
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being. Hebrews 1:3
Here is the first thing that Jesus Christ will do when He returns at the end of the Tribulation.
Revelation 19: 11. And I saw heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True; and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
12] And His eyes are a flame of fire, and upon His head are many diadems; and He has a name written upon Him which no one knows except Himself.
13] And He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood; and His name is called The Word of God.
14] And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine lined, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
15] And in His mouth comes a sharp sharp sword, so that with it He might smite the nations; and He will rule them with a rod of iron, and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
16] And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, ''King of Kings, and Lord of lords.''
17] And I saw an angel standing n the sun; and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in mid-heaven, ''Come, assemble for the great supper of God;
18] in order that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.''
19] And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat upon the horse, and against His army.
Then comes the judgment of the nations and the baptism of fire, in which every unbeliever left alive on the earth will be thrown off the earth and into the eternal fire (Matthew 25:41).
Jesus Christ came as the Lamb of God during His First Advent for the purpose of going to the cross and dying for the sins of the world.
Jesus Christ comes at the end of the Tribulation as the lion of Judah to set up His Millennial kingdom.
So says the word of the living God.
God is presented the same in both testaments.
::Sigh::Using Revelation as the proof text for ANYTHING is so fraught with enigmatically gross error that anyone who claims even to understand its symbolism . . . let alone use it to prove his ideas about God . . .Moderator cut: delete
Last edited by Miss Blue; 03-04-2012 at 07:58 PM..
Reason: Brass monkeys???
Here is the first thing that Jesus Christ will do when He returns at the end of the Tribulation.
Revelation 19: 11. And I saw heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True; and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
12] And His eyes are a flame of fire, and upon His head are many diadems; and He has a name written upon Him which no one knows except Himself.
13] And He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood; and His name is called The Word of God.
14] And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine lined, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
15] And in His mouth comes a sharp sharp sword, so that with it He might smite the nations; and He will rule them with a rod of iron, and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
16] And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, ''King of Kings, and Lord of lords.''
17] And I saw an angel standing n the sun; and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in mid-heaven, ''Come, assemble for the great supper of God;
18] in order that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.''
19] And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat upon the horse, and against His army.
Then comes the judgment of the nations and the baptism of fire, in which every unbeliever left alive on the earth will be thrown off the earth and into the eternal fire (Matthew 25:41).
Jesus Christ came as the Lamb of God during His First Advent for the purpose of going to the cross and dying for the sins of the world.
Jesus Christ comes at the end of the Tribulation as the lion of Judah to set up His Millennial kingdom.
::Sigh::Using Revelation as the proof text for ANYTHING is so fraught with enigmatically gross error that anyone who claims even to understand its symbolism . . . let alone use it to prove his ideas about God . . .Moderator cut: delete
There is no error in the book of Revelation anymore than there is in the rest of the word of God.
Symbolism notwithstanding, the book of Revelation is actually simple to understand.
Here are 240 hours of study of the book of Revelation taught by Dr. Dean who is a very knowledgeable Bible teacher.
All one has to do is do a Bible study on the four gospels and count how many times Jesus quoted the Old Testament, not only acknowledging them as real people that were recorded doing real things, but also proclaiming the Scriptures as the authority - the Word of God. Jesus taught the divineinerrency of the Holy Scriptures and them as the authority. Do we believe in Jesus?
We had the Author in person. He certainly would have corrected errors if there were any. Instead he quoted from the Old Testament extensively to give us a lesson - we are to use the Scriptures as the Divineauthority.
God gave us his Word. The Word is a title for the Lord Christ Jesus himself. We are told to use the "Whole Council of God".
When Jesus comes back, he's coming back to wage War as the Mashiach Ben David.
Acts 1
4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12Then returned they unto Jerusalem fromthe mountcalledOlivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
Zechariah 14
1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4And his feet shall standin that dayupon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, andall the saints with thee.
..The Lord goes on...
12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
When the Lord comes back, it is called the "Day of Vengeance."
Luke 4:17-19
17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
The Lord quoted from Isaiah 61. The one part he didn't read.
Isaiah 61
1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
Jesus says he comes back in the glory of the Father
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Isaiah 63
1Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.
7I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
Revelation 14:14-20
14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Zechariah 12:9-14
9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
Revelation 1:7-8
7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. Jesus is YHVH God. The SAME one as in the Old Testament. Not the Father but the Son, but the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son in the Holy Spirit which are ONE.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 03-05-2012 at 07:44 AM..
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If it was then we have actually regressed alot since.
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written by stupid, primitive, ignorant savages???
