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Does Hebrews 11:3 really say the worlds were framed by the word of God?
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that
things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Here is a better translation:
Heb_11:3 By faith we are apprehending the eons to adjust to a declaration of God, so that what
is being observed has not come out of what is appearing."
Notice the word in red above? The plural form of aion is used. The Greek word for "world" is "kosmos." Kosmos is not used in Heb.11:3. What is being observed? Israel is set aside and faith is given to the nations apart from Israel. The eons were adjusted for this secret administration we have been in for almost 2000 years.
RESPONSE:
"Among the reasons why Pauline authorship has been abandoned are the great difference of vocabulary and style between Hebrews and Paul’s letters, the alternation of doctrinal teaching with moral exhortation, the different manner of citing the Old Testament, and the resemblance between the thought of Hebrews and that of Alexandrian Judaism. The Greek of the letter is in many ways the best in the New Testament (NAB)
>>Where in Luke does he describe the destruction of Jerusalem and temple by the Romans in 70 AD? That's a new one to me!<<
RESPONSE:
From the Codex Sinaticus c. 4th century
Luke 21:5,6
5 And as some were speaking of the temple that it was adorned with goodly stones and offerings, he said:
6 As to these things that you see, days will come in which there shall not be left a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.
Yet note that John's Gospel, written 96-106, doesn't describe the destruction of the Temple.
Last edited by ancient warrior; 06-05-2012 at 07:08 AM..
Reason: typo
>>Where in Luke does he describe the destruction of Jerusalem and temple by the Romans in 70 AD? That's a new one to me!<<
RESPONSE:
From the Codex Sinaticus c. 4th century
Luke 21:5,6
5 And as some were speaking of the temple that it was adorned with goodly stones and offerings, he said:
6 As to these things that you see, days will come in which there shall not be left a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.
Yet note that John's Gospel, written 96-106, doesn't describe the destruction of the Temple.
The passage you cite above in Luke 21:5,6 does not state the temple was destroyed yet. So how could Luke's account have been written after 70 A.D.?
Maybe that proves John's gospel was not written 96-106. BTW, how could John have written his gospel in 106 when he died years earlier?
The passage you cite above in Luke 21:5,6 does not state the temple was destroyed yet. So how could Luke's account have been written after 70 A.D.?
Maybe that proves John's gospel was not written 96-106. BTW, how could John have written his gospel in 106 when he died years earlier?
RESPONSE:
Haven't you figured it out yet? Supposed prophecies are written after the fact, not before. The few times that they were written before, serious problems resulted, like the many prophecies in the New Testament that Christ was returning within the lifetime of his followers.
Now fundamentalists have come up with the most bizarre reasoning to get around the plain meaning of words!
>>Maybe that proves John's gospel was not written 96-106. BTW, how could John have written his gospel in 106 when he died years earlier?<<
RESPONSE:
"Maybe, maybe, maybe"???? The apostle John was not the only writer of what we call the Gospel of John. In fact, the apostle John probably didn't write any of it.
Please note that there are two passages in John's gospel that refer to the Christians being excluded from the Jewish synagogues. This occurred when Christianity split with Judaism about 85 AD. Also notice, the exclusion was from the Jewish synagogues, not the Temple. The Temple had long since been destroyed in 70AD. Hence the Gospel of John had to have been written sometime after the exclusion 85 AD. (se exclusion of the "minim") Before that, Christains were a Temple worshiping very orthodox sect (Acts: " ...zealous for tjhe law") within conventional Judaism.
Last edited by ancient warrior; 06-05-2012 at 11:05 AM..
Reason: typo
You got it all backwards buddy. Prophecies were written prior to the fact. Daniel's 70 7's being a prime example. Daniel was not written after the Messiah came.
Luke was written prior to 70 A.D.
Jesus never said He would, without any doubt, return in the lifetime of His followers. He used subjunctives such as "may" and "should" and even said Himself "no one knows when I will return, not the angels, not Me, only the Father knows."
Quote:
A.W. wrote: "Maybe, maybe, maybe"???? The apostle John was not the only writer of what we call the Gospel of John. In fact, the apostle John probably didn't write any of it.
"probably, probably, probably." The apostle John was the only writer of what we call the Gospel of John. In fact, the apostle John wrote all of it.
Quote:
Please note that there are two passages in John's gospel that refer to the Christians being excluded from the Jewish synagogues. This occurred when Christianity split with Judaism about 85 AD. Also notice, the exclusion was from the Jewish synagogues, not the Temple. The Temple had long since been destroyed in 70AD. Hence the Gospel of John had to have been written sometime after the exclusion 85 AD. (se exclusion of the "minim") Before that, Christains were a Temple worshiping very orthodox sect (Acts: " ...zealous for tjhe law") within conventional Judaism.
Please give us the two passages.
If the temple was destroyed, John would have written about it.
[quote=Eusebius;24610733]
>>Luke was written prior to 70 A.D.<<
>>"Jesus never said He would, without any doubt, return in the lifetime of His followers. He used subjunctives such as "may" and "should" and even said Himself "no one knows when I will return, not the angels, not Me, only the Father knows."<<
RESPONSE:
Yes he did.
Matthew 10-23
And when they shall persecute you in this city, flee into another. Amen I say to you, you shall not finish all the cities of Israel, till the Son of man come.
Mark 14:62 "And Jesus said to him: I am. And you (the high priest) shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God, and coming with the clouds of heaven.
>>The apostle John was the only writer of what we call the Gospel of John. In fact, the apostle John wrote all of it.<<
RESPONSE:
No he didn't. For example, the story of the woman taken in adultery (John 7-8) wasn't added to the Gospel of John until the 4th century. It is absent in all early manuscripts including the Codex Sinaticus (available on-line) and the Codex Vaticanus.
Please give us the two passages.
RESPONSE:
Sure. But you should really read the gospels yourself!
(John 9:22)
"These things his parents said, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had already agreed among themselves, that if any man should confess him to be Christ, he should be put out ofthe synagogue. "
John 16:1 "John 16) "I have said these things to you to keep you from stumbling. 2 They will put you out ofthe synagogues. "
The central place of worship was the Temple, not the synogogues until the Temple was destroyed. But it had been destroyed when John wrote his gospel. Why would there be concern with being banned from the synagoues if they could still worship in the Temple?
>>If the temple was destroyed, John would have written about it.<<
John didn't write about the Last Supper either. . Are you going to claim that if it had really happened, John would have written about it?
He did, however, refer to the exclusion of the Christians from Judaism about 85 AD. See above.
>>"Jesus never said He would, without any doubt, return in the lifetime of His followers. He used subjunctives such as "may" and "should" and even said Himself "no one knows when I will return, not the angels, not Me, only the Father knows."<<
RESPONSE:
Yes he did.
Matthew 10-23
And when they shall persecute you in this city, flee into another. Amen I say to you, you shall not finish all the cities of Israel, till the Son of man come.
Mark 14:62 "And Jesus said to him: I am. And you (the high priest) shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God, and coming with the clouds of heaven.
Oh A.W., what am I to do with you? They have not yet finished all the cities of Israel.
Mat 10:23 Now, whenever they may be persecuting you in this city, flee
into a different one, for, verily, I am saying to you, Under no
circumstances should you be finishing the cities of Israel till the Son of
Mankind may be coming.
So Christ waits 2000 years. Those 12 disciples have not finished the cities of Israel.
As to Mark 14:62, Jesus was referring to the resurrection of the just and unjust per Daniel 12:2. In John's future revelation given to him on Patmos around 96 or so A.D. he wrote that "Rev_1:7 Lo! He is coming with clouds, and every eye shall be seeing Him-those, also, who stab Him-and all the tribes of the land shall be grieving over Him. Yea! Amen!"
>>Eusebius wrote: The apostle John was the only writer of what we call the Gospel of John. In fact, the apostle John wrote all of it.<<
Quote:
RESPONSE:
No he didn't. For example, the story of the woman taken in adultery (John 7-8) wasn't added to the Gospel of John until the 4th century. It is absent in all early manuscripts including the Codex Sinaticus (available on-line) and the Codex Vaticanus.
Not all Bibles have the adulterous woman. The correct Bibles that don't have it have the version John wrote. Most bibles that have the adulterous woman have a note that it is not original to John.
Please give us the two passages.
Quote:
RESPONSE:
Sure. But you should really read the gospels yourself!
(John 9:22)
"These things his parents said, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had already agreed among themselves, that if any man should confess him to be Christ, he should be put out ofthe synagogue. "
John 16:1 "John 16) "I have said these things to you to keep you from stumbling. 2 They will put you out ofthe synagogues. "
The central place of worship was the Temple, not the synogogues until the Temple was destroyed. But it had been destroyed when John wrote his gospel. Why would there be concern with being banned from the synagoues if they could still worship in the Temple?
Excuse me but that does not prove the temple was destroyed. All it proves is that there were many synagogues while the temple still stood.
For instance, in John 2:19 the temple is still standing.
In Matthew, Mark and Luke the temple is still standing. Do a search on "temple."
>>If the temple was destroyed, John would have written about it.<<
Quote:
John didn't write about the Last Supper either. . Are you going to claim that if it had really happened, John would have written about it?
The other three wrote about the last supper, so we know it occurred. None of them wrote of the destruction of the temple. Therefore they were all written prior to 70 A.D.
Quote:
He did, however, refer to the exclusion of the Christians from Judaism about 85 AD. See above.
Oh A.W., what am I to do with you? They have not yet finished all the cities of Israel.
Mat 10:23 Now, whenever they may be persecuting you in this city, flee
into a different one, for, verily, I am saying to you, Under no circumstances should you be finishing the cities of Israel till the Son of Mankind may be coming.
So Christ waits 2000 years. Those 12 disciples have not finished the cities of Israel.
RESPONSE:
Thats right. The Apostles and the high priest all died long before and the Son of Man hasn't returned. Sort of like saying this generation will not pass away until or those standing here will remain until.....
>>As to Mark 14:62, Jesus was referring to the resurrection of the just and unjust per Daniel 12:2. In John's future revelation given to him on Patmos around 96 or so A.D. he wrote that "Rev_1:7 Lo! He is coming with clouds, and every eye shall be seeing Him-those, also, who stab Him-and all the tribes of the land shall be grieving over Him. Yea! Amen!"<<
Nope. Jesus was refering to the Apostles and the high priest. Again we shoud use the plain meaning of words!
But you certainly have a creative, but inaccurate, interpretation!
E wrote: Oh A.W., what am I to do with you? They have not yet finished all the cities of Israel.
Mat 10:23 Now, whenever they may be persecuting you in this city, flee
into a different one, for, verily, I am saying to you, Under no circumstances should you be finishing the cities of Israel till the Son of Mankind may be coming.
So Christ waits 2000 years. Those 12 disciples have not finished the cities of Israel.
Quote:
AW. replied: RESPONSE:
Thats right. The Apostles and the high priest all died long before and the Son of Man hasn't returned. Sort of like saying this generation will not pass away until or those standing here will remain until.....
Of course they died and they never finished the cities yet. So they must be resurrected and then the priest will see him. Christ comes with the clouds of heaven (as He told the chief priest) when He returns.
Quote:
>>E wrote: As to Mark 14:62, Jesus was referring to the resurrection of the just and unjust per Daniel 12:2. In John's future revelation given to him on Patmos around 96 or so A.D. he wrote that "Rev_1:7 Lo! He is coming with clouds, and every eye shall be seeing Him-those, also, who stab Him-and all the tribes of the land shall be grieving over Him. Yea! Amen!"<<
Quote:
Nope. Jesus was refering to the Apostles and the high priest. Again we shoud use the plain meaning of words!
But you certainly have a creative, but inaccurate, interpretation!
They were always getting His words wrong. He said "raze this temple and in three days I will raise it up." They thought He was talking about the physical temple made of stones.
I know Jesus was referring to the apostles and high priest. That's my point. They have to be resurrected to see what Jesus told them they would see. It is very plain, you know.
The passage you cite above in Luke 21:5,6 does not state the temple was destroyed yet. So how could Luke's account have been written after 70 A.D.?
RESPONSE:
It had been destroyed when he wrote the passage as if it were a prophecy, don't you get it?
The sure way to have a prophecy "fulfilled" is to write it after the fact.
In the Gospel that my friend Ralph is writing, he said the he prophecised in 1980 that planes would crash into the twin towers.
So like Luke's "not one stone on top of the other," Ralph can claim a fulfilled prophecy.
But what it actually shows that his Gospel was written after the year 2000!
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They have not yet finished all the cities of Israel. 
