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So we have this: John, chapter one, verse one. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." OK. Everyone is cool with that. Right? Good.
Then we have John, chapter one, verse 14 which says-and I quote: And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. Word for word. Do we agree? Good.
So this Word became flesh. This begotten person. And who would that be? Anyone, anyone???
Word was God. Check. Word became flesh. Check. As the only begotten, who dwelt among us. OK and who was that?
So we have this: John, chapter one, verse one. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." OK. Everyone is cool with that. Right? Good.
Then we have John, chapter one, verse 14 which says-and I quote: And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. Word for word. Do we agree? Good.
So this Word became flesh. This begotten person. And who would that be? Anyone, anyone???
Word was God. Check. Word became flesh. Check. As the only begotten, who dwelt among us. OK and who was that?
Comments?
I agree but,
IS 53:1 "Who has believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?" Those who have not received the report will only nash at you like dogs and tear at you. Beware.
In Greek the gospel of John actually says "In the beginning was the Logos..."
"the Logos" was a Greek stoic Idea, not a Jewish one.
Jesus never preached the Churches ideas, that is obvious, as "John" said it: and John didn't say In the Beginning was the Holy Spirit, so when did that come along...Moderator cut: delete
Last edited by Miss Blue; 07-20-2012 at 05:34 AM..
Reason: off topic and attack
You would think it were that simple, but as Arians, Adoptionists, Gnostics, Ebionites, Socinians, Jehovah's Witnesses and a whole host of other false sects throughout the ages have shown us, it isn't. We must continue wrestling with the tension of a triune God, and a Christ that was both fully man and fully human, but we also have those who have gone before us to draw from and thank for their contribution.
A little wordy, but still good:
Nicene-Constantopolitan Creed:
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, Begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made:
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;
And ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father;
And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, Whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke by the Prophets;
And we believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins.
We look for the Resurrection of the dead,
And the Life of the age to come. Amen.
Chalcedonian statement:
We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach people to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood;
truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body;
consubstantial with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood;
in all things like unto us, without sin;
begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood;
one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably;
the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten God, the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ;
as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.
So we have this: John, chapter one, verse one. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." OK. Everyone is cool with that. Right? Good.
Then we have John, chapter one, verse 14 which says-and I quote: And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. Word for word. Do we agree? Good.
So this Word became flesh. This begotten person. And who would that be? Anyone, anyone???
Word was God. Check. Word became flesh. Check. As the only begotten, who dwelt among us. OK and who was that?
Comments?
Why do you assume the phrase, “the Word” in John 1:1 is a person? If you look how this phrase is used throughout the Gospel records. It clearly means ‘the Gospel message’ (e.g. Mk. 2:2; 4:33; 16:20; Lk. 3:2; Jn. 12:48; 14:24; Acts 4:4; 11:19).
God is one. Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. Thats also simple.
RESPONSE:
It is only with the last Gospel, John written 96-106 AD do we find that Jesus, in addition to being the messiah, is divine himself.
This concept came into being about 85 AD. If it had occurred earlier, the Jews would never have allowed the original followers of Jesus continue as a sect within orthodox Judaism as we see in Acts of the Apostles.
After it began to be claimed that Jesus was also God, the Christians were expelled from the Jewish synagogues as apostates.
Why do you assume the phrase, “the Word” in John 1:1 is a person? If you look how this phrase is used throughout the Gospel records. It clearly means ‘the Gospel message’ (e.g. Mk. 2:2; 4:33; 16:20; Lk. 3:2; Jn. 12:48; 14:24; Acts 4:4; 11:19).
Why don't you look at how John uses it throughout his writings? Also, in this context, merely "the gospel message" makes no sense for some of these Johnannine passages.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior
It is only with the last Gospel, John written 96-106 AD do we find that Jesus, in addition to being the messiah, is divine himself.
On what basis do you bump your date from 85-95 range to 96-106 ? Also, even if it's not as explicit as John's gospel, there are numerous instances of implicit claims to deity throughout the Synoptics. Not to mention plenty of epistles, all written before John, that also back up the claim. So this idea that no one thought of Jesus as divine until after 85 AD has little support.
I don't mean to be a party pooper but Jesus did say this in the same book John 1:1 is in:
John_20:17 which is the term for "Teacher.Jesus is saying to her, "Do not touch Me, for not as yet have I ascended to My
Father. Now go to My brethren, and say to them that I said, 'Lo! I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God
and your God.'"
So Jesus said:
I am ascending to where My God is.
I am ascending to where your God is.
My God is not Me.
Your God is not Me.
My God is up there (Jesus pointing heavenward).
Your God is up there (Jesus pointing heavenward).
So we have this: John, chapter one, verse one. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." OK. Everyone is cool with that. Right? Good.
Then we have John, chapter one, verse 14 which says-and I quote: And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. Word for word. Do we agree? Good.
So this Word became flesh. This begotten person. And who would that be? Anyone, anyone???
Word was God. Check. Word became flesh. Check. As the only begotten, who dwelt among us. OK and who was that?
Comments?
Yes to anyone who is listening to the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth it is very simple, Jesus IS God, but not everyone has the Holy Spirit.
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