Is It Possible.....? (crucifixion, hell, punishment, Revelation)
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that punishment in hell was non-existent before Jesus died, and only became penalty for sin after Jesus' death? Put another way, did Jesus' death equally make eternal life in God's presence possible for the righteous and eternal death possible for the unrighteous, where prior to Jesus' crucifixion it would not have been part of God's plan to punish the wicked in fiery torment just as it would not have been part of God's plan to let the OT saints into heaven? I am brainstorming here and am trying to find a logical reason why God never speaks of torment in hell in the OT like the writers of the NT do.
The wages of sin is death, not eternal life in a Dante torture chamber.
After death, eternal life is only via the resurrection of the body.
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Let me ask it yet a third way: did Jesus' death have any effect at all on where a soul goes after death? If it's always been that the souls of the wicked go to hell for torment then why doesn't the OT contain at least one warning from God that the wicked will "suffer excruciating pain in eternal fires" if they don't turn from their sinful ways? Why was the penalty for wickedness always physical curse and physical death on this earth and not in the afterlife? The Israelites didn't even believe in an afterlife pre-Jesus. Remember what the crowds told Jesus, "Abraham and the prophets are dead and you say whoever keeps my word shall never taste death." For the people Abraham was just a distant memory.
The idea that one's mind/personality leaves the body and consciously lives on somewhere else after death is pagan.
That concept is not found in holy scripture [ie, the Old Testament.]
" Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work,
nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. "
Ecclesiastes 9:10
The only afterlife, the resurrection of the body.
" But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming. "
In some ways, I think hell is the state of burning in your own sin as you live your life. The negative after affects, consequences, pain, suffering, bad health, etc is the heall that everyone lives with everyday resulting from their sins. I know that is not much of an insight on what hell would be beyond our present life (other than an eternal seperation from God).
However, thats not fully on topic. My understanding is that before Jesus died for us, all souls went to, basically, the same place. A holding place under the earth, where the righteous and the wicked went. The righteous waiting to be brought to God's kingdom. After Jesus, the righteous went right to God's kingdom, leaving only the wicked left in hell.
What does that mean for unbelievers now? I am not sure. The location where the wicked go would seem to be an eternal hell of torment. Yet, not all of what is the Old Testament hell was meant as a place of torment since righteous went there too. Could that mean that those who have not accepted Christ, but are not wicked, might be "in hell" but not in eternal torment? I am not nearly enough of a theological scholar to fully know that.
Last edited by Checkered24; 07-31-2012 at 01:52 PM..
The idea that one's mind/personality leaves the body and consciously lives on somewhere else after death is pagan.
That concept is not found in holy scripture [ie, the Old Testament.]
" Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work,
nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. "
Ecclesiastes 9:10
The only afterlife, the resurrection of the body.
" But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming. "
1 Corinthians 15:20-23
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That's not true. The New Testament is every bit as much holy Scripture as the Old Testament. And the greater revelation of the New Testament shows very clearly that since the resurrection of Jesus Christ the believer in Jesus Christ goes to heaven when he dies. I did a recent thread on it >>> > //www.city-data.com/forum/chris...-believer.html and so won't go into the details again. Those who believe in soul sleep have shown themselves to not be interested in the facts no matter how clear the scriptures are.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 "Whatsoever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work,
nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, where you are going." Because it is talking about the fact that things of this earth will no longer exist after death but life goes on.
1COR 13:8-10 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall end; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. Heaven is a place beyond the knowlege and wisdom of this life.
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