Is It Possible.....? (crucified, beliefs, scripture, sinned)
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So you're saying Jesus used what he knew to be a false teaching (and never corrected it) to teach a different truth? I don't buy it.
Many years after the resurrection of Christ, Peter had his "slay and eat" dream.
Peter said he had never eaten unclean food [notice Peter was still following God's Law.]
Most Christians today think Peter's 'slay and eat' dream means it's now okay to eat pork, etc.
But Peter knew differently. He puzzled about what the dream really meant.
If you read the text, Peter did come to understand the dream - it had nothing to do with eating unclean food.
In Christ's day, Palestine was filled with foreigners and false doctrines.
Jesus spoke to the masses in parables.
Later, He would explain the parables to His disciples.
His disciples asked Him why He spoke to the people in parables
and Jesus said because He didn't want them to understand,
if they did they might repent and be forgiven.
See Matthew 13 and Mark 4
" And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries
of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance:
but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not;
and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. "
Matthew 13
" He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you.
But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that,
' they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven! '"
Mark 4
If one understands what was happening in Palestine at that time, who was in control of the palace and the temple [Edom]
then one begins to understand not only why Jesus spoke in parables, but also why the God of Israel chose this specific time
in Israel's history to incarnate.
I understand the reason he spoke in parables. I get that. He intentionally hid teaching from those that were lost. That really isn't the point. You're kind of going off on a tangent there.
Now....are you suggesting he intentionally used a heretical teaching in order to teach truth? Can you point out a similar passage where he did such a thing?
that punishment in hell was non-existent before Jesus died, and only became penalty for sin after Jesus' death? Put another way, did Jesus' death equally make eternal life in God's presence possible for the righteous and eternal death possible for the unrighteous, where prior to Jesus' crucifixion it would not have been part of God's plan to punish the wicked in fiery torment just as it would not have been part of God's plan to let the OT saints into heaven? I am brainstorming here and am trying to find a logical reason why God never speaks of torment in hell in the OT like the writers of the NT do.
In Jay100's understanding (I'm no authority), people who have gone to hell are in a holding place until judgement day. On judgement day, they will be thrown into the lake of fire and burn forever.
I understand the reason he spoke in parables. I get that. He intentionally hid teaching from those that were lost. That really isn't the point. You're kind of going off on a tangent there.
Now....are you suggesting he intentionally used a heretical teaching in order to teach truth?
Can you point out a similar passage where he did such a thing?
I already did that with Peter's "slay and eat" dream.
God sent the dream. Jesus is God.
Peter was well-grounded in God's Law, so, while the ignorant might think the dream meant for Peter
to disobey God's Law and eat unclean food, Peter knew it meant something else... and it did.
I already did that with Peter's "slay and eat" dream.
God sent the dream. Jesus is God.
Peter was well-grounded in God's Law, so, while the ignorant might think the dream meant for Peter
to disobey God's Law and eat unclean food, Peter knew it meant something else... and it did.
.
Considering that the Law was no longer in effect, those dietary laws were no longer an issue. The Law was fulfilled with Jesus (Rom 10:4).
Again, I ask...when did Jesus use a heretical teaching in order to teach truth?
Considering that the Law was no longer in effect, those dietary laws were no longer an issue. The Law was fulfilled with Jesus (Rom 10:4).
Again, I ask...when did Jesus use a heretical teaching in order to teach truth?
God's Law is eternal.
If one takes the parable literally [which it isn't] then one must also believe that people in heaven and hell can speak to one another.
Of course, that is absurd.
Do you see the irony of a parable that *seems* to teach a pagan doctrine using the name, Lazarus, the same name as the man
whom Jesus resurrected from the dead ?
Resurrection of the dead into glorified bodies is the ONLY immortality.
.
Last edited by king's highway; 08-01-2012 at 12:45 PM..
Many years after the resurrection of Christ, Peter had his "slay and eat" dream.
Peter said he had never eaten unclean food [notice Peter was still following God's Law.]
Most Christians today think Peter's 'slay and eat' dream means it's now okay to eat pork, etc.
But Peter knew differently. He puzzled about what the dream really meant.
If you read the text, Peter did come to understand the dream - it had nothing to do with eating unclean food.
In Christ's day, Palestine was filled with foreigners and false doctrines.
Jesus spoke to the masses in parables.
Later, He would explain the parables to His disciples.
His disciples asked Him why He spoke to the people in parables
and Jesus said because He didn't want them to understand,
if they did they might repent and be forgiven.
See Matthew 13 and Mark 4
" And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries
of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance:
but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not;
and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. "
Matthew 13
" He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you.
But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that,
' they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven! '"
Mark 4
If one understands what was happening in Palestine at that time, who was in control of the palace and the temple [Edom]
then one begins to understand not only why Jesus spoke in parables, but also why the God of Israel chose this specific time
in Israel's history to incarnate.
.
The vision was making two points. Indeed it was speaking about God cleansing the Gentles indicated by using the method of a simile of foods. He was also declaring all meats were fit to eat as it was before He gave the temporary ordinances to Israel. Not to be circumcised is also OK as it to was a temporary ordinance as well and only a sign of obediance and of the New Covenant of a circumcised heart yet to be. Those ordinances were only added so as to try them for thier own proof, not God's, as to wither they would obey God in any thing He said. They are not needed now because in Christ we have the power to will and do what is good and of Eternal value, not just temporary.
It is written that it is the foolishness of God that is wiser then men and He chose foolish things to confound the wise. All that God was doing was to use such things to prove to men, because He Himself knew, that they would not fully obey because of the fallen nature of man and thus point to the need of a better Covenant were He would change the very nature of man through Christ, the power of salvation but foolishness to to those who will not believe
As I have said before God used the simile of foods to make a spiritual point but the simile is true also.
JN 3:12 "If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
1TIM 4:1-4 "Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:"
If one takes the parable literally [which it isn't] then one must also believe that people in heaven
and hell can speak to one another.
You'll notice that Lazarus and the rich man never actually spoke to each other.
Quote:
Of course, that is absurd.
Do you see the irony of a parable that *seems* to teach a pagan doctrine using the name, Lazarus,
the same name as the man whom Jesus resurrected from the dead ?
Resurrection of the dead into glorified bodies is the ONLY immortality.
Jesus was the firstfruits of those who now sleep.
.
Yes--we will be resurrected into glorified bodies. In the meantime, Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He certainly believed that he would do more than sleep until the resurrection. And Hell is also taught in the scriptures.
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