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I agree that God IS love. God is merciful and gracious!
But, what do you say about all the other scriptural references that speak of His wrath, judgment and hell? What about the all the verses of Jesus Himself warning people about hell and dying in their sins? What about all the verses that say many seek to enter Heaven but very few will make it and the rest are on the wide road that leads to destruction?
I agree that God IS love. God is merciful and gracious!
But, what do you say about all the other scriptural references that speak of His wrath, judgment and hell?
God's justice is not exclusive of love. Rather it is love which causes God to discipline for the Bible says "whom He loveth He chastens."
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What about the all the verses of Jesus Himself warning people about hell and dying in their sins?
Jesus was correct about people going to GEHENNA (mistranslated "hell" in some bibles). It must not be inferred that should one "die in their sins" that they can never be saved later.
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What about all the verses that say many seek to enter Heaven but very few will make it and the rest are on the wide road that leads to destruction?
First off it does not say many seek to enter Heaven but that many will seek to enter the kingdom OF the heavens which Jesus is going to set up on the earth.
No one suffers in Gehenna. It is a trash dump in which the dead bodies of criminals will be dumped and burned.
God's love is such that "He is working ALL together for GOOD." All who go to what some call "Hell" will eventually be let out and God is going to save them too.
Excellent point, Eusebius, about God chastening those whom He loves.
ALL THINGS work together for good. That includes his temporary wrath, which does not last forever, his temporary chastisement, and all is part of his justice. Perfect justice. Because it stems from His Perfect LOVE. What a wonderful thought to focus on.
JUDGMENT in NOT just about a verdict. Yes, after death comes judgment and when God's judgments are in the EARTH, the inhabitants learn righteousness. Once people get it out of their head that judgment is not merely a pronouncement of "GUILTY, OFF WITH HIS HEAD" or "NOT GUILTY, come in and live a life of luxury" then we will begin to see that God has a plan that HE HIMSELF is working out exactly as He intends.
Glory to God in the highest, Peace on earth, good will to men. Good will to ALL MEN. Our cure has come, the disease will have final victory over anyone. it's good news for EVERYONE.
First and foremost, Eusebius, thanks for addressing every part of my post, point by point. No Universalist has ever done that. Not once. We may not agree but I thank you for being respectful enough to respond in this way. I'm very sincere when I ask these questions because I just don't understand where the belief comes from. No Universalist has ever answered them. I've only ever gotten responses like, "Well, God IS love and I just don't understand how you can anything else."
How is that supposed to convince me?
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
God's justice is not exclusive of love. Rather it is love which causes God to discipline for the Bible says "whom He loveth He chastens."
I agree that God chastens and disciplines those He loves. Just as an earthly parent corrects their children, so does God with us. My question was more about God's judgments AFTER death. But, you address those below, so, moving on...
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Jesus was correct about people going to GEHENNA (mistranslated "hell" in some bibles). It must not be inferred that should one "die in their sins" that they can never be saved later.
This is what I don't understand. Where does this belief come from? Where is the example of it in scripture? Where is the context of this in any of the scriptures? There is no example of anyone being saved after death. In fact, the example given is just the opposite.
The rich man and Lazarus. Even when the rich man was being tormented, he never repented. He only asked that Lazarus would go and tell his brothers so that they can escape the same fate he received. One of many things this shows us is that, even after death, no one would repent if they didn't in life.
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First off it does not say many seek to enter Heaven but that many will seek to enter the kingdom OF the heavens which Jesus is going to set up on the earth.
No one suffers in Gehenna. It is a trash dump in which the dead bodies of criminals will be dumped and burned.
God's love is such that "He is working ALL together for GOOD." All who go to what some call "Hell" will eventually be let out and God is going to save them too.
What do you call what others call "hell"? Not every reference to hell in the scriptures refers to Gehenna. Where does it say that God will let them out and save them? Where is the example of this in scripture? With this policy, why should anyone who's living in sin now care if it doesn't matter in the end and they're going to be saved anyway? Where does the scripture show that salvation will be, basically, forced onto people? Where does it say that everyone will eventually accept salvation after they die?
What about the scriptures that refer to ETERNAL torment and hell fire?
Whether it's called Universalism, the Gospel of Inclusion or Ultimate Reconciliation, it's just not biblical.
John 14:6 says that the only path to salvation is through Jesus.
John 3:16 says God sent Jesus into the world to secure salvation for a fallen humanity, but that salvation is only available to those who place their faith in Jesus Christ as God’s payment for their sin. The apostles repeat this same message in Ephesians 2:8-9, 1Peter 1:8-9, and 1John 5:13.
Salvation is acquired through faith. After death, what need is there for faith? And, along with faith comes repentance. Acts 2:38 show that the two go hand-in-hand. Repentance is a change of mind about your sin and your need for salvation through Jesus by faith. There is no repentance after death. Repentance is when we acknowledge before God we’re sinners incapable of earning our way to salvation, so we repent of our sins -- we change our minds about them and turn away from them -- and seek Christ by faith. If faith and repentance are not required to receive the gift of salvation, then why is the New Testament full of calls to repent and place your faith in Jesus Christ? If salvation doesn’t require faith in the finished work of Jesus on the cross, then why did Jesus submit to such a humiliating and excruciatingly painful death? God could have just granted everyone a divine pardon.
Jesus Himself said in Matthew 7:13-14 and John 3:19, that not everyone will believe. No one likes to think that a loving and gracious God would send people to hell, but that is exactly what the Bible teaches. In the clearest teaching Jesus gave regarding the final judgment, He says that at the end, the Son of Man will separate all the nations as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. The sheep represent those who, through faith in Jesus Christ, have salvation secured and will go into the kingdom with Jesus. The goats represent those who have rejected the salvation that Jesus offers and will go into hell, which is described as eternal fire in Matthew 25:31-46.
If everyone is going to go to heaven whether they realize it or not, then what about free will? Is the hard-core atheist who spent their life rejecting God, the Bible, Jesus, and Christianity going to be dragged into heaven kicking and screaming against their will? That would mean that heaven will be filled with people who don’t necessarily want to be there.
In 2 Corinthians 2:16, Paul calls the message of the gospel the “fragrance of death†because the gospel is offensive to many people. Why? Because it tells people the truth about their sin and hopeless condition without Jesus. It was also the apostle Paul who said, in Galatians 1:8, that anyone who preached a different gospel than the one he preached should be cursed. That shows how incredibly important the message of the gospel is and how vitally important it is to get it right. A false gospel doesn’t save anyone. All it does is condemn more people to hell and generate greater condemnation for those who purvey such falsehoods.
I agree that God IS love. God is merciful and gracious!
But, what do you say about all the other scriptural references that speak of His wrath, judgment and hell? What about the all the verses of Jesus Himself warning people about hell and dying in their sins? What about all the verses that say many seek to enter Heaven but very few will make it and the rest are on the wide road that leads to destruction?
People refuse to want to hear the other side to things. It amazes me how many Christians think Hell doesn't exist. What do they think Jesus came to save them for? I will never understand people who think being a Christian and Jesus was all about peace, love, kindness, and flowers and roses. He said he came to bring a sword, not peace.
First and foremost, Eusebius, thanks for addressing every part of my post, point by point. No Universalist has ever done that. Not once. We may not agree but I thank you for being respectful enough to respond in this way. I'm very sincere when I ask these questions because I just don't understand where the belief comes from. No Universalist has ever answered them. I've only ever gotten responses like, "Well, God IS love and I just don't understand how you can anything else."
How is that supposed to convince me?
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Originally Posted by Eusebius God's justice is not exclusive of love. Rather it is love which causes God to discipline for the Bible says "whom He loveth He chastens."
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I agree that God chastens and disciplines those He loves. Just as an earthly parent corrects their children, so does God with us. My question was more about God's judgments AFTER death. But, you address those below, so, moving on...
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Jesus was correct about people going to GEHENNA (mistranslated "hell" in some bibles). It must not be inferred that should one "die in their sins" that they can never be saved later.
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P & S wrote: This is what I don't understand. Where does this belief come from? Where is the example of it in scripture? Where is the context of this in any of the scriptures? There is no example of anyone being saved after death. In fact, the example given is just the opposite.
Hello P & S, to my understanding there is verifiable evidence contained within Paul's epistles that people can and will be saved later.
Romans 8:19-21 is one of the passages Paul alludes to all mankind (presently outside the believer's circle) will be encompassed within the same freedom we believers now experience by faith and later by sight. The entire creation will be freed into the glorious freedom of the children of God. It does not say a remnant of creation or a good portion of creation or most of creation but ALL creation. 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 is another passage where, after death is abolished the rest of mankind are subjected to Christ and God will then be All in all, not just All in some.
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P & S wrote: The rich man and Lazarus. Even when the rich man was being tormented, he never repented. He only asked that Lazarus would go and tell his brothers so that they can escape the same fate he received. One of many things this shows us is that, even after death, no one would repent if they didn't in life.
If you are going to take the rich man and Lazarus parable of what really happens when someone dies, then you need to take the parable of the prodigal son just before it as to what occurrs when one dies and later comes back to the father after being made alive. He died in sin, went to the pig farm, came to his senses while dead (if that's even possible for one to think while they are dead since the Bible says the dead know nothing) but be that as it may, the boy comes back to life and the father receives him into his loving arms.
The Rich Man was in a tomb. In the old Testament Sheol was the grave and Hades is the Greek translation of Sheol, and therefore Hades is the grave or tomb. There really are no rivers and deep crevasses which no one can cross or flames in people's tombs in Israel. It was just a parable. Besides, he will get out of Hades/tomb to appear before the Great White Throne later on.
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Quote: Eusebius wrote:
First off it does not say many seek to enter Heaven but that many will seek to enter the kingdom OF the heavens which Jesus is going to set up on the earth.
No one suffers in Gehenna. It is a trash dump in which the dead bodies of criminals will be dumped and burned.
God's love is such that "He is working ALL together for GOOD." All who go to what some call "Hell" will eventually be let out and God is going to save them too.
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P & S wrote: What do you call what others call "hell"? Not every reference to hell in the scriptures refers to Gehenna. Where does it say that God will let them out and save them? Where is the example of this in scripture? With this policy, why should anyone who's living in sin now care if it doesn't matter in the end and they're going to be saved anyway? Where does the scripture show that salvation will be, basically, forced onto people? Where does it say that everyone will eventually accept salvation after they die?
There is Sheol sometimes translated "Hell" and sometimes the grave.
There is Hades which is sometimes translated "hell" and sometimes transliterated as "Hades."
There is Gehenna which is a trash dump to the south of Jerusalem but which is often translated "hell."
The lake of fire is divinely called "death" or "the second death." It is not life but unconscious death.
The unchosen will go through life not caring one way or the other about salvation. Only the ones God chooses are saved for the on-coming ages. The rest to not get to live through the duration of the coming ages like we will.
Romans 5:18,19 shows being made sinners and being condemned as being forced on all mankind. But on the other side of the equation one must be fair and see that righteousness and justification will be forced on all mankind due to what Christ did. Fair is fair. If Adam can do it, a greater than Adam can do it too for all.
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What about the scriptures that refer to ETERNAL torment and hell fire?
There are some very respected translations which do not have "eternal torment" in them but "age-lasting punishment." Also "hell fire" is the fires of Gehenna and only lasts for the duration of the millennial reign of Christ in Israel.
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P & S wrote: Whether it's called Universalism, the Gospel of Inclusion or Ultimate Reconciliation, it's just not biblical.
I believe it is.
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P & S wrote: John 14:6 says that the only path to salvation is through Jesus.
That is true. That is what I believe. Every verse I quote backs that up. For instance, Romans 5:18,19 is through Jesus, what He did. Colossians 1:20 has all creation reconciled to God through Jesus (through the blood of Christ's cross). In Philippians 1:8-11 it is first stated that Christ went to the cross and based on that all will bow in the name of Jesus and acclaim Jesus is Lord. There are more scriptures but I think you get the idea. If Christ did not die and be entombed and resurrected no one could be saved.
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P & S wrote: John 3:16 says God sent Jesus into the world to secure salvation for a fallen humanity, but that salvation is only available to those who place their faith in Jesus Christ as God’s payment for their sin. The apostles repeat this same message in Ephesians 2:8-9, 1Peter 1:8-9, and 1John 5:13.
Please read John 3:17 as well. "God sent His Son into the world so that the world may be saved." It is not the "may" of doubt but the may of the subjunctive mood. The subjunctive mood goes like this: I have a pen in my hand. I will loose my grip on the pen so that it may be falling. The pen's falling is dependent upon my loosing my grip on it. Likewise the salvation of the world is dependent upon God sending His Son into the world. Since He did, the world must be saved. But not at the same time! 1 Corinthians 15:23,24 show three different times when all mankind will be vivified or made alive and God All in all.
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Salvation is acquired through faith. After death, what need is there for faith? And, along with faith comes repentance. Acts 2:38 show that the two go hand-in-hand. Repentance is a change of mind about your sin and your need for salvation through Jesus by faith. There is no repentance after death. Repentance is when we acknowledge before God we’re sinners incapable of earning our way to salvation, so we repent of our sins -- we change our minds about them and turn away from them -- and seek Christ by faith. If faith and repentance are not required to receive the gift of salvation, then why is the New Testament full of calls to repent and place your faith in Jesus Christ? If salvation doesn’t require faith in the finished work of Jesus on the cross, then why did Jesus submit to such a humiliating and excruciatingly painful death? God could have just granted everyone a divine pardon.
God could not possibly have saved anyone without the ignominious death of Christ. All mankind were put to death when Christ was put to death. All died. "One who dies has been justified from sin."
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Jesus Himself said in Matthew 7:13-14 and John 3:19, that not everyone will believe. No one likes to think that a loving and gracious God would send people to hell, but that is exactly what the Bible teaches. In the clearest teaching Jesus gave regarding the final judgment, He says that at the end, the Son of Man will separate all the nations as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. The sheep represent those who, through faith in Jesus Christ, have salvation secured and will go into the kingdom with Jesus. The goats represent those who have rejected the salvation that Jesus offers and will go into hell, which is described as eternal fire in Matthew 25:31-46.
That is true, not everyone will believe because not everyone can believe.
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P & S wrote: If everyone is going to go to heaven whether they realize it or not, then what about free will? Is the hard-core atheist who spent their life rejecting God, the Bible, Jesus, and Christianity going to be dragged into heaven kicking and screaming against their will? That would mean that heaven will be filled with people who don’t necessarily want to be there.
The atheist will be changed. He, like doubting Thomas will not believe until he puts his finger in His holes.
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In 2 Corinthians 2:16, Paul calls the message of the gospel the “fragrance of death” because the gospel is offensive to many people. Why? Because it tells people the truth about their sin and hopeless condition without Jesus. It was also the apostle Paul who said, in Galatians 1:8, that anyone who preached a different gospel than the one he preached should be cursed. That shows how incredibly important the message of the gospel is and how vitally important it is to get it right. A false gospel doesn’t save anyone. All it does is condemn more people to hell and generate greater condemnation for those who purvey such falsehoods.
That is true that to the ones perishing the gospel is not attractive to them. God has not opened their understanding to accept the gospel.
Paul did indeed say if anyone bring a different evangel/gospel other than the one he brought he would be accursed. Paul never taught the nations they had to repent to be saved like you have in this post. And Paul never taught eternal torment. Paul never taught that the vast majority of mankind will never be saved. But in fact, Paul taught that God will have all mankind to be saved and that God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially (not exclusively) them that believe (1 Tim.2:4-6; 4:10) and specifically told us to charge and teach these things. So if anyone is anathema it would not be me.
People refuse to want to hear the other side to things. It amazes me how many Christians think Hell doesn't exist. What do they think Jesus came to save them for? I will never understand people who think being a Christian and Jesus was all about peace, love, kindness, and flowers and roses. He said he came to bring a sword, not peace.
That's strange, Jesus never once said "I have come to save you from hell." Nor did his disciples ever say: "Save yourselves from hell!" But they did say "save yourselves from this wicked generation."
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