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Hi, welcome to the group! Did Judas really make the choice all by himself to betray the Lord? I think that his betrayal was a part of God's plan. Was it wrong for him to do it? Yes, but the scriptures had to be fulfilled. Jesus knew who would betray Him in the beginning. (John 6:64) Peter teaches in Acts 2 that Jesus was delivered by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God. Judas betrayed Jesus, but God planned for him to. God bless.
HI, Thank You! Yes, I believe Judas did have a choice (Luke 22:48). Yes, I totally agree with the script Jesus knew He would be betrayed. God knew Judas heart, that he would choose greed over love.
(Acts 2:22-23) Peter solemnly charged the Jewish leaders with crucifying the Man attested by God, their Messiah. They were responsible, but our Lord's death was no accident. He was delivered by the detemined purpose and foreknowledge of God. The theology of the Bible blends belief in the total sovereignty of God with the recognition of the full responsibility of human agents.
God does not want anyone to sin, we choose to sin (James1:12-15). James is telling me a person has a choice. God does not tempt, but He permits Satan to tempt us (Job1:9-12; Matt.4:1). The typical origin, progess, and outcome of sin. The movement is downward. First come the thoughts followed by desires; then acceptance followed by action; finally and ultimately death. (Gen. 3:6,22-24). Evil desires have conceived when our will decides to act on them. Judas act upon his greed for the money. Not love for our Lord Jesus Christ. To me that is a choice I hope you can understand.
Thank you for letting me share my heart with you in His precious Love.
HI, Thank You! Yes, I believe Judas did have a choice (Luke 22:48). Yes, I totally agree with the script Jesus knew He would be betrayed. God knew Judas heart, that he would choose greed over love.
(Acts 2:22-23) Peter solemnly charged the Jewish leaders with crucifying the Man attested by God, their Messiah. They were responsible, but our Lord's death was no accident. He was delivered by the detemined purpose and foreknowledge of God. The theology of the Bible blends belief in the total sovereignty of God with the recognition of the full responsibility of human agents.
God does not want anyone to sin, we choose to sin (James1:12-15). James is telling me a person has a choice. God does not tempt, but He permits Satan to tempt us (Job1:9-12; Matt.4:1). The typical origin, progess, and outcome of sin. The movement is downward. First come the thoughts followed by desires; then acceptance followed by action; finally and ultimately death. (Gen. 3:6,22-24). Evil desires have conceived when our will decides to act on them. Judas act upon his greed for the money. Not love for our Lord Jesus Christ. To me that is a choice I hope you can understand.
Thank you for letting me share my heart with you in His precious Love.
Thank you very much for sharing. I agree that Judas chose to betray the Lord out of the greed of his heart. He was wrong in what he did and why he did it. But I don't believe that he could have acted differently, even if he had wanted to. The scriptures had to be fulfilled and Jesus knew who would betray Him in the beginning. I believe that this was God's role for Judas in the predetermined plan of God.
I also agree that God does not tempt us to sin. It is conceived in our hearts, but I do believe that God's revealed will to us and His intentions for us are 2 different things. There is a good article that I read a few years back on the 2 hands of God that I will try to find and share some on another thread.
What if Judas had made a different choice? What would that have meant? God bless.
"When Jesus had thus spoken, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, "Truly, truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me." 22 The disciples looked at one another, uncertain of whom he spoke. 23 One of his disciples, whom Jesus loved, was lying close to the breast of Jesus; 24 so Simon Peter beckoned to him and said, "Tell us who it is of whom he speaks." 25 So lying thus, close to the breast of Jesus, he said to him, "Lord, who is it?" 26 Jesus answered, "It is he to whom I shall give this morsel when I have dipped it." So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27 Then after the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, "What you are going to do, do quickly." (Revised Standard)
And some say that Judas did not really have a choice right here, because satan entered him at this point. And Jesus urged him to do it quickly. God bless.
Hi, once again!
Here is some scripture I base my belief on:
John 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray Him.
Note: Judas was a thief and received a handsome sum for betraying Jesus, but the verse reveals the devil as the one who suggested the sin.
John 13:23-26
It was a mark of honor for the host to dip a piece of bread (v.26) and give it to one of his guests. For this reason, probably none of the disciples except Judas knew that Jesus had pointed out His betrayer.
John 13:27
Satan entered him: By accepting Jesus' token of friendship insincerely, Judas confirmed his previous intention to betray Jesus (John 13:2). Satan now completely possessed him.
Luke 22:3: Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the tweve.
Note: Satan entered because Judas chose to yield his will, allowing Satan to possess it. He was not a demoniac without full control of himself.
Well I guess God would have found someone else whose heart was hard, because scripture had to be fulfilled. Many have asked the same question through out time "what if"? I am sorry he did.
My whole thing about this all was that in a early conversation someone had mention every one will be saved and this is not true and I used Judas as the example. Every person has a choice to be a part of God's plan for mankind. And Judas made his choice in that plan. We have that choice now to receive it into our hearts through Jesus Christ (Heb.9:23-28).
Just like me I can make that same decision this very moment. And turn my heart away from God and give it to satan for the season of sin and pleasure. But I don't want too. I want to live knowing I have made the right choice loving God and honoring His word and will in my life. That is what blesses me is knowing I have the choice to love Him or turn my heart away.
For He has drawn me in His loving grace to see the truth through faith in Jesus Christ and I was given the opportunity to allow Him to give me the most beautiful gift my life could ever receive. Loving Him with all my heart.
I couldn't Love Him if it wasn't for Him.
So I do know that, I like everyone else have and had that choice..... I once was like Judas hard heart full of sin!!!! Till God reveal to me the love of His Son.....
Thanks
I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding of my intentions in the beginning of all this. I didn't come to dispute or argue the scripture, I just came to have the opportunity to maybe share my heart!
Hi, once again!
Here is some scripture I base my belief on:
John 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray Him.
Note: Judas was a thief and received a handsome sum for betraying Jesus, but the verse reveals the devil as the one who suggested the sin.
John 13:23-26
It was a mark of honor for the host to dip a piece of bread (v.26) and give it to one of his guests. For this reason, probably none of the disciples except Judas knew that Jesus had pointed out His betrayer.
John 13:27
Satan entered him: By accepting Jesus' token of friendship insincerely, Judas confirmed his previous intention to betray Jesus (John 13:2). Satan now completely possessed him.
Luke 22:3: Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the tweve.
Note: Satan entered because Judas chose to yield his will, allowing Satan to possess it. He was not a demoniac without full control of himself.
Well I guess God would have found someone else whose heart was hard, because scripture had to be fulfilled. Many have asked the same question through out time "what if"? I am sorry he did.
Hi again and thank you for sharing the scriptures. I find it very beneficial to share with each other and I am not trying to argue with you. I just want to share as you want to share. From what I am reading, satan did put the idea into the heart of Judas and satan did also enter Judas. As I shared earlier, some believe that Judas would not have done this on his own, but either way, Judas was the one who betrayed the Lord. I don't see how God would have found someone else, though, if Jesus already knew who would betray Him in the beginning. What Judas did was terrible, but think about it, it had to be done. It was God's plan and as a result Jesus died for us to give us life. What Judas and the others meant for evil, God meant and used for good, is how I understand it.
Quote:
My whole thing about this all was that in a early conversation someone had mention every one will be saved and this is not true and I used Judas as the example. Every person has a choice to be a part of God's plan for mankind. And Judas made his choice in that plan.
I think that person was me. I believe that the scriptures support that all will be eventually be reconciled to God one day. One example is Romans 8:19-21. What if it is God's plan for all to be reconciled to Him. Can a man's free will defeat the will of his own Creator?
Quote:
We have that choice now to receive it into our hearts through Jesus Christ (Heb.9:23-28).
Just like me I can make that same decision this very moment. And turn my heart away from God and give it to satan for the season of sin and pleasure. But I don't want too. I want to live knowing I have made the right choice loving God and honoring His word and will in my life. That is what blesses me is knowing I have the choice to love Him or turn my heart away.
For He has drawn me in His loving grace to see the truth through faith in Jesus Christ and I was given the opportunity to allow Him to give me the most beautiful gift my life could ever receive. Loving Him with all my heart.
I couldn't Love Him if it wasn't for Him.
But you could only have chosen God if He had drawn you to see the truth through faith, right? And you also say that you couldn't love Him if it wasn't for Him. As a Christian Universalist, I believe that ultimately God is the One who is doing this great work of salvation and He will do it for all. But if we choose Him it is because of Him. It may seem to us as if we are the ones who are choosing Him, but it isn't up to our free will because if we say that it is, then who gets the credit? Ephesians 1:11 says that He works all things after the counsel of His will. It's about God, not about us.
Judas, I believe, betrayed the Lord. His heart was corrupt and God's plan for him was to betray Jesus. Whether or not Judas could have done it without satan entering him, I don't know, but he did do it. And if Jesus knew who would betray Him in the beginning, there is no way that it could have been otherwise, imo. Thanks again very much for sharing. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 10-27-2007 at 10:30 PM..
Reason: clarification
[quote=ShanaBrown;1848634]Hi again and thank you for sharing the scriptures. I find it very beneficial to share with each other and I am not trying to argue with you. I just want to share as you want to share. From what I am reading, satan did put the idea into the heart of Judas and satan did also enter Judas. As I shared earlier, some believe that Judas would not have done this on his own, but either way, Judas was the one who betrayed the Lord. I don't see how God would have found someone else, though, if Jesus already knew who would betray Him in the beginning. What Judas did was terrible, but think about it, it had to be done. It was God's plan and as a result Jesus died for us to give us life. What Judas and the others meant for evil, God meant and used for good, is how I understand it.
I think that person was me. I believe that the scriptures support that all will be eventually be reconciled to God one day. One example is Romans 8:19-21.
But you could only have chosen God if He had drawn to see the truth through faith, right? And you also say that you couldn't love Him if it wasn't for Him. As a Christian Universalist, I believe that ultimately God is the One who is doing this great work of salvation. If we choose Him it is because of Him. It isn't up to our free will because if we say that it is, then who gets the credit?
I believe God is the ultimate One Whom is doing the great work of my salvation. I know I could never think of something so wonderful to give to someone. Maybe it is bad choice of words.... God revealed His ultimate plan to me and I believed in it. And He then rewarded me with the faith to continue to believe every moment of the day (Heb. 11:6, But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarded of those who diligently seek Him.) Left to myself I would falter... I need Him and His grace to enter my heart so that I may see His known will and purpose for my life. I don't know what a day holds to it self. But through His Holy Spirit continually showing me the way through the power of His word. Then I can follow. So somewhat I do choose but He places it before me and then I can believe it or not.... God always gets the Glory!! I could never take any kind of credit for the plan of salvation. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures. James 1:17-18. God granted us a mind, that is to think or act is a choice of that mind. Why would He command us to love Him with all are hearts if you couldn't make a choice too? How would I know what sin was compared to righteousness if I wasn't shown right from wrong to make that choice. I had to see God and Satan to make that decision. Didn't I? So it is a choice. But I didn't create Gods plan of salvation, I chose it. So He gets all the credit, not me! The Lord Jesus bless you!!
Judas, I believe, betrayed the Lord. His heart was corrupt and God's plan for him was to betray Jesus. Whether or not Judas could have done it without satan entering him, I don't know, but he did do it. And if Jesus knew who would betray Him in the beginning, there is no way that it could have been otherwise, imo. Thanks again very much for sharing. God bless.
I agree Shana,
Proverbs 21:1 says God moves people`s hearts. Acts4 :22-28 says it was predestined for pilate and Herod . Romans chapter 9 is a hard chapter for some people to comprehend. But it says, God will hardened whom he will and grant mercy to whom he will. Some vessels are fitted for destruction.So that tells me God has a plan and a purpose. I know that it is very hard for our finite minds to grasp the idea that we somehow are not involved in our salvation. We want to belief that somehow ,some way we are more discerning than our neighbor. Somehow we made the right choice and they did not..that we chose to accept the free gift and they did not. That is giving some of the credit to us for our salvation however limited it is. We cannot except any credit,no matter how small,for our salvation. I was lost but now I`m found....remeber that song? Who found me? God found me I didn`t find him. I`ve heard people say things like..`my life was a mess before I FOUND JESUS. But Jesus found you. The scripture says I chose you ,you didn`t choose me. We are like lost sheep in this world,waiting for our savior to find us.That is why, ever since I came to the belief that God would indeed be victorius and save his creation, I see people in differently then I did before. For some reason that I had nothing to do with, God found me. God has chosen not to open the spiritual eyes of some people right now as part of his plan. But eventually EVERY KNEE will bow and EVERY TONGUE CONFESS. What a glorius day that will be!
I agree Shana,
Proverbs 21:1 says God moves people`s hearts. Acts4 :22-28 says it was predestined for pilate and Herod . Romans chapter 9 is a hard chapter for some people to comprehend. But it says, God will hardened whom he will and grant mercy to whom he will. Some vessels are fitted for destruction.So that tells me God has a plan and a purpose. I know that it is very hard for our finite minds to grasp the idea that we somehow are not involved in our salvation. We want to belief that somehow ,some way we are more discerning than our neighbor. Somehow we made the right choice and they did not..that we chose to accept the free gift and they did not. That is giving some of the credit to us for our salvation however limited it is. We cannot except any credit,no matter how small,for our salvation. I was lost but now I`m found....remeber that song? Who found me? God found me I didn`t find him. I`ve heard people say things like..`my life was a mess before I FOUND JESUS. But Jesus found you. The scripture says I chose you ,you didn`t choose me. We are like lost sheep in this world,waiting for our savior to find us.That is why, ever since I came to the belief that God would indeed be victorius and save his creation, I see people in differently then I did before. For some reason that I had nothing to do with, God found me. God has chosen not to open the spiritual eyes of some people right now as part of his plan. But eventually EVERY KNEE will bow and EVERY TONGUE CONFESS. What a glorius day that will be!
Amen, spm62! It is hard for our finite minds to comprehend. The ways of God are higher than our ways... I remember singing the song, I Have Decided to Follow Jesus. It is a good song, but I have to remember that I only decided to follow Jesus because He first chose me! I see people differently too since realizing that God will eventually reign in each heart one day. No heart is too far gone or so resistant that He can't reach it. Thank you for sharing. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 10-28-2007 at 12:10 AM..
Do you feel god gives you his grace and therefore you are saved and only by him giving you his grace is it possible to be saved? Or do you feel that "everyone" who claims to believe in god is saved? I know alot of people who claim to believe in god but do not "really" live their lives like christians.
I for one believe that God gives you his grace and by him alone will you be saved but I have a friend that thinks I am crazy. Her famous line back at me is "What about free will"? I for one do not believe that we have free will in this capacity. What are your thoughts?
he expects us to tow the line. but the ultimate salvation is an act of grace.
stephen s
san diego ca
I believe God is the ultimate One Whom is doing the great work of my salvation. I know I could never think of something so wonderful to give to someone. Maybe it is bad choice of words.... God revealed His ultimate plan to me and I believed in it. And He then rewarded me with the faith to continue to believe every moment of the day (Heb. 11:6, But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarded of those who diligently seek Him.)
Hi Curlythecosmo, thank you for sharing again. I appreciate your willingness to share what is on your heart. Can you share with me what you believe this scripture is saying?
Ephesians1: 10 "In Him, also we have obtained an inheritance having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."
Does this reveal the sovereignty of God and His ways? He is directing all things, even though we may not be able to see or feel or understand how it is operating. We come to Him, diligently seeking Him but He is the One who put that desire within us to seek Him, I believe. And the faith that we have is a gift from Him. Can we really say that we sought Him or believed in Him solely out of our own free will?
Quote:
Left to myself I would falter... I need Him and His grace to enter my heart so that I may see His known will and purpose for my life. I don't know what a day holds to it self. But through His Holy Spirit continually showing me the way through the power of His word. Then I can follow. So somewhat I do choose but He places it before me and then I can believe it or not.... God always gets the Glory!! I could never take any kind of credit for the plan of salvation. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures. James 1:17-18. God granted us a mind, that is to think or act is a choice of that mind. Why would He command us to love Him with all are hearts if you couldn't make a choice too? How would I know what sin was compared to righteousness if I wasn't shown right from wrong to make that choice. I had to see God and Satan to make that decision. Didn't I? So it is a choice. But I didn't create Gods plan of salvation, I chose it. So He gets all the credit, not me! The Lord Jesus bless you!!
I believe that God gives us a choices but our choices are not solely the result of our own free wills. For example, in James 4, he says that we don't know what our lives will be like tomorrow. We should say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and also do this or that." Jesus said that no one could come to Him unless the Father granted this. (John 6:65) I believe that whatever choice we make for God is the result of His working in our lives. Thank you for sharing and God's blessings to you.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 10-28-2007 at 12:50 AM..
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