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The issue of inerrancy is not moot. It is of supreme importance. By virtue of the fact that the original autographs were God-breathed, that is, that they originated from God, and that the Scriptures have come down to us 'substantially as they were written', to quote the late Sir Frederick Kenyon, the Bible is shown to be reliable and that it can be trusted.
Two Points:
1) The statement that the autographs are God-breathed is not a fact - it is a bold and unsubstantiated assumption on your part.
2) Inerrancy does not necessitate Inspiration. Something could be inerrant and not God-breathed.
The Bible doesn't merely contain the Word of God, it Is the Inerrant Word of God
I'm sorry . . . but the real elephant in the room here is magical thinking. Anyone remotely familiar with human fallibility and flaws could NEVER expect anything even just handled briefly by human beings to be completely infallible or inerrant, period. The Bible CONTAINS words inspired by God. That in itself is more than enough of an assumption requiring enormous belief in the testimony and writings of our ignorant savage ancestors. To claim infallibility and inerrancy for those writings handled and translated multiple times through multiple languages over 4000+ years or more is completely ridiculous. It is relying on "the thinga-ma-bob that does the job . . . Bibbity Bobbity Boo!" I do not believe in magic. I am too much of a scientist for that. But I believe in Christ and His Gospel of love. God IS Agape Love. Anything in the Bible that contradicts that Gospel of love is of man . . . NOT of God, period.
1) The statement that the autographs are God-breathed is not a fact - it is a bold and unsubstantiated assumption on your part.
2) Inerrancy does not necessitate Inspiration. Something could be inerrant and not God-breathed.
Wrong on both counts. We are talking about the inerrancy of Scripture. Of God's word as originally communicated to the human writers of Scripture. All Scripture is God-breathed and is what inspiration refers to in 2 Tim. 3:16. Because the original autographs were God-breathed - exhaled by God to the human writers of Scripture, they could be nothing less than inerrant.
As shown previously, both the Book of Revelation (Rev. 1:1-2) and the Book of Jeremiah (Jeremiah chapter 36) are referred to by their human authors as the word of God, the word of the LORD.
As a matter of fact, Jeremiah tells us that the original scroll was destroyed, and that God told him to make another copy, to which God added new material that wasn't in the original.
Last edited by Michael Way; 08-24-2013 at 07:13 PM..
Wrong on both counts. All Scripture is God-breathed, that is what inspiration refers to in 2 Tim. 3:16. Because the original autographs were God-breathed - exhaled by God to the human writers of Scripture, they could be nothing less than inerrant.
As shown previously, both the Book of Revelation (Rev. 1:1-2) and the Book of Jeremiah (Jeremiah chapter 36) are referred to by their human authors as the word of God, the word of the LORD.
As a matter of fact, Jeremiah tells us that the original scroll was destroyed, and that God told him to make another copy, to which God added new material that wasn't in the original.
A piece from post #99 on the Galatians thread, but quite appropriate for this one as well---
Consider this--
1) Tom teaches a falsehood based on a misunderstanding of some subset of divine revelation.
2) Jack knows that's wrong, but agrees that that divine revelation teaches this falsehood, or at least does not support the truth. So he supports his truth from some other source.
3) Tom stands by the original revelation, and rejects the new source of authority.
4) Jack presses his claim by asserting the superiority of the later authority, at least implicitly putting down the earlier authority, and thereby confirming to Tom that Jack is an apostate and that the truth Jack wants to prove is wrong.
5) Since both are arbitrarily, on their own authority, choosing what to believe - and that is the essence of heresy - they reach an impasse. A sterile trench warfare follows, nobody learns anything, and reconciliation is impossible.
Jesus diagnosed the problem precisely. "You are greatly mistaken, because you know neither the Scriptures, nor the power of God." Considering the colossal ignorance of Scripture among us (at least in other people), and how little knowledge of God's power we show in our lives, it's no marvel that these two great problems should keep bringing forth endless variations of this great mistakenness. In general, those today who hold to the inerrancy of Scripture agree absurdly with those who despise its authority, and in their common adherence to the same lies, they reinforce each other's folly.
The right response, as Jesus showed, is to accept the authority of the Law and show that it really is about loving your neighbor as yourself - that Hillel was right when he said, "Whatever is hateful to you, do not to others. That is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary."
It is not enough just to agree with Hillel in this, relying on his stature. That's no substitute for the hard work of proving him right. What should make this especially obvious is that those who actually believe Jesus of Nazareth to be the Son of God are still not persuaded by this to believe and DO as He says in the Sermon on the Mount. People must be shown how He was making sense in order to follow Him in these things. The importance here is about people believing and still not DOING!! Believing but not loving. Believing but not being uplifting. Believing but not following.
Legalism: A beginning is to recall that God did not say anything about sacrifices and offerings, dietary laws, or liturgical observances in the day that He led the people out of Egypt. He said, "Listen to my voice." Micah the prophet summed it up thus: "What does the Lord require of you but to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God." The Law had said earlier: "What does the Lord require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways and love Him, and to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul?" in order in this way "to keep the Lord's commandments and His statutes that I am commanding you this day for your good."
American Christians have the same sorts of problems. Those that uphold Biblical authority generally seem reluctant to address what undermines it in the minds of others. As in modern Israel, it is mostly because those who claim to believe the divine revelation are so foolish - so devoid of plain ethical sense, ordinary human compassion, and simple truthfulness.The religious people are as mistaken today as in the days of the Good Samaritan, WHEN ONLY THE GUY WITH THE WRONG THEOLOGY REVEALED ANY SENSE OF GOD'S WILL.
08-24-2013, 07:05 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Wrong on both counts. All Scripture is God-breathed, that is what inspiration refers to in 2 Tim. 3:16. Because the original autographs were God-breathed - exhaled by God to the human writers of Scripture, they could be nothing less than inerrant.
As shown previously, both the Book of Revelation (Rev. 1:1-2) and the Book of Jeremiah (Jeremiah chapter 36) are referred to by their human authors as the word of God, the word of the LORD.
As a matter of fact, Jeremiah tells us that the original scroll was destroyed, and that God told him to make another copy, to which God added new material that wasn't in the original.
Wrong - LMAO! You have done nothing to validate that the autographs were God-breathed. Absolutely nothing! All you have done is beg the question. Furthermore, your logic regarding why something must be inspired because it is inerrant is fallacious. Please explain you reasoning how something that is inerrant (without error) must be God-inspired?
Side Note: II Tim.3:16 is not in reference to the NT writings.
The Word of God rests on manifest truth, not dogmatic assertions
"Many a man proclaims his own loyalty, but who can find a trustworthy man?" (Proverbs 20:6). You don't have to believe that the Bible is the word of God to believe this statement - just watch some television commercials.
Pressure to believe dogmatic assertions because some authority demands it is always of the Lie.Any pressure not to examine things, any impatience and resentment if you insist, is always of the Lie. Those who walk in darkness learn to think that God is just like them (Psalm 50:21), so those who are uncomfortable with hard questions often expect God to be offended too when we want to examine His words with due care. But when the Bible says, "Examine everything," maybe it really means everything. Why don’t you try it and see?
God can teach humility because He is humble Himself. In saying, "examine everything" (1 Thessalonians 5:21) God invites you to test it all against history, reason, your own conscience - everything you know is true (2 Corinthians 4:2). What else can it mean when He says, "test the spirits" (1 John 4:1), and "examine?" If God really revealed it to the speaker, He will confirm it somehow to the hearer, so that the hearer can only reject it by rejecting what he knows is true, as the Bible says in many places. This is especially evident in how Jesus spoke to his opponents - consider for instance the parables of the two debtors, the two sons, and the Good Samaritan (Luke 7:41-47, Matthew 21:28-32, Luke 10:29-37).
Of course there are shouted objections - for instance, "If the Bible is the word of God, and the word of God is reasonable, then why does the Bible say, with no support from reason, that the whole creation was made in six 24 hour solar days?"
The question raises a crucial issue. Jesus reminds us in Matthew 23 that religious people tend to love irrationality. To the gods of this world, joyful assent of their disciples to known lies is the proof of their loyalty to the god, the sacrifice to it of their good sense and intelligence - of their humanity. Perhaps the best picture of how this works is George Orwell’s 1984.
Thus the North Korean regime promotes the gushy adoration of "Dear Leader", just as people adored Stalin the more he tormented them and destroyed his people. The essential cause is not coercion. Coercion does not explain why people wept in the streets at Stalin’s death. Coercion does not explain the feeling of religious exaltation of Americans as they assert that their regime is "one nation under God" which affords "liberty and justice to all" - all the more firmly as its godlessness, oppressiveness, and injustice grow ever more flagrant.
Jesus said that those who worship the Father must worship Him in spirit and in truth. This is radical. In all idolatry, in everything we ever serve before we answer God’s call, adherence to the Lie is the essence of worship. Religious people, including Christians, are so addicted to irrationality because we have not realized how completely different our God is, and so our religion is hard to tell from all the others.
It is not stupidity or lack of education that makes religious people go out of the way to understand the Bible as absurdly as possible, clinging to these absurdities as the word of God. They really believe that intentional stupidity and irrationality - in Orwellian Newspeak, "goodthink" and "crimestop" - are the highest service they can offer. Indeed they are, if the object of worship is demonic.
Paul Atwood
Last edited by Wardendresden; 08-24-2013 at 08:08 PM..
Reason: formatting
As a matter of fact, Jeremiah tells us that the original scroll was destroyed, and that God told him to make another copy, to which God added new material that wasn't in the original.
Yeah, right . . . and Joseph Smith said the same thing about his second supposed translation of the golden tablets.
Wrong on both counts. We are talking about the inerrancy of Scripture. Of God's word as originally communicated to the human writers of Scripture. All Scripture is God-breathed and is what inspiration refers to in 2 Tim. 3:16. Because the original autographs were God-breathed - exhaled by God to the human writers of Scripture, they could be nothing less than inerrant.
As shown previously, both the Book of Revelation (Rev. 1:1-2) and the Book of Jeremiah (Jeremiah chapter 36) are referred to by their human authors as the word of God, the word of the LORD.
As a matter of fact, Jeremiah tells us that the original scroll was destroyed, and that God told him to make another copy, to which God added new material that wasn't in the original.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1
Wrong - LMAO! You have done nothing to validate that the autographs were God-breathed. Absolutely nothing! All you have done is beg the question. Furthermore, your logic regarding why something must be inspired because it is inerrant is fallacious. Please explain you reasoning how something that is inerrant (without error) must be God-inspired?
Side Note: II Tim.3:16 is not in reference to the NT writings.
Yes I have.
As you have been told, we are talking about the fact that the Scriptures by virtue of originating with God are inerrant in the original autographs. You have been shown that two books make explicate statements that they are the word of God. Those two books are Revelation and Jeremiah.
2 Timothy 3:16 is a reference to the Old Testament Scriptures and applies to whatever NT Scriptures were in existence at the time. As well, in principle it applies to all the Scripture that would eventually be written.
3:16-17. Paul had just noted that the Scriptures are able to make one wise with regard to salvation, a lesson Timothy had learned long before. But now Paul wanted to reemphasize to Timothy the crucial role of God's inscripturated revelation in his present ministry. Thus Paul reminded Timothy that all Scripture is God-breathed (theopneustos, ''inspired''), that is, God's words were given through men superintended by the Holy Spirit so that their writings are without error. This fact was virtually taken for granted by the Jews. [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, p. 757]
The NT Scriptures are the result of what Jesus said in John 16.
John 16:12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13] "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14] "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15] "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
The NT is the fulfillment of the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit.
08-24-2013, 10:43 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Yes I have.
As you have been told, we are talking about the fact that the Scriptures by virtue of originating with God are inerrant in the original autographs. You have been shown that two books make explicate statements that they are the word of God. Those two books are Revelation and Jeremiah.
2 Timothy 3:16 is a reference to the Old Testament Scriptures and applies to whatever NT Scriptures were in existence at the time. As well, in principle it applies to all the Scripture that would eventually be written.
3:16-17. Paul had just noted that the Scriptures are able to make one wise with regard to salvation, a lesson Timothy had learned long before. But now Paul wanted to reemphasize to Timothy the crucial role of God's inscripturated revelation in his present ministry. Thus Paul reminded Timothy that all Scripture is God-breathed (theopneustos, ''inspired''), that is, God's words were given through men superintended by the Holy Spirit so that their writings are without error. This fact was virtually taken for granted by the Jews. [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, p. 757]
The NT Scriptures are the result of what Jesus said in John 16.
John 16:12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13] "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14] "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15] "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
The NT is the fulfillment of the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit.
You don't make any sense
How do you know the autographs originate from God? Oh wait the 'Scriptures' tells me so. This is Begging the question - as I already pointed out. It also just does not make any sense in light of the fact that you have already admitted that the present mss have errors. Saying that the present error filled mss that we have now says that they are God-breathed just further complicates your question-begging.
Furthermore, even if we had the autographs and they were error-free this does nothing in necessitating that they were God-breathed. The fact that this truth is to complicated for you to grasp and that you make irrelevant points and act as if you are actually addressing the issue just shows me you either are unable to see the flaws in your thinking or you are just blantantly ignoring these points and putting-up irrelevant non-sequitur smokescreens. You just ramble on and on as if you actually accomplish something by repeating and completely ignoring the finer points that others and myself bring to your attention.
How do you know the autographs originate from God? Oh wait the 'Scriptures' tells me so. This is Begging the question - as I already pointed out. It also just does not make any sense in light of the fact that you have already admitted that the present mss have errors. Saying that the present error filled mss that we have now says that they are God-breathed just further complicates your question-begging.
Furthermore, even if we had the autographs and they were error-free this does nothing in necessitating that they were God-breathed. The fact that this truth is to complicated for you to grasp and that you make irrelevant points and act as if you are actually addressing the issue just shows me you either are unable to see the flaws in your thinking or you are just blantantly ignoring these points and putting-up irrelevant non-sequitur smokescreens. You just ramble on and on as if you actually accomplish something by repeating and completely ignoring the finer points that others and myself bring to your attention.
And the very defense Mike makes results in rejection of Scripture by some of those who have more than dogma for intelligence.
As stated above--Pressure to believe dogmatic assertions because some authority demands it is always of the Lie. Any pressure not to examine things, any impatience and resentment if you insist, is always of the Lie. Those who walk in darkness learn to think that God is just like them (Psalm 50:21), so those who are uncomfortable with hard questions often expect God to be offended too when we want to examine His words with due care. Butwhen the Bible says, "Examine everything," maybe it really means everything.
Dogma refutes Truth and attempts to destroy those who seek Truth. Dogma is about CONTROL, not about finding God.
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The Bible doesn't merely contain the Word of God, it Is the Inerrant Word of God
), and how little knowledge of God's power we show in our lives, it's no marvel that these two great problems should keep bringing forth endless variations of this great mistakenness. In general, those today who hold to the inerrancy of Scripture agree absurdly with those who despise its authority, and in their common adherence to the same lies, they reinforce each other's folly. 
