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Perhaps God could have created us knowing good and evil without having to go through all this. But He didn't. Why? I would suggest it's because this was a better plan.
What I think is that we disagree on whether God made us expecting man to be exactly what He wanted us to be or not. If He did and we aren't what He expected by our responses then we have the choice to believe He either chose not to know what we would do or wasn't able to know or is letting us figure it out without help, or perhaps with a little help. There are many different ways one can go. So each point we answer is going to make us differ from at least a few other people. Then when you start out at a place that people get to by taking many different turns, none of us makes sense to the other. If you don't think the Old Testament speaks truly of God, then you can't have a reasonable discussion with someone who believes the scriptures even when they say something about the Creator we don't want to believe because of our picture of God. (And by stating we have choices, I believe He takes us to those points and each choice of each person leads to another path that God set up...per se He doesn't control our thoughts, and yet......that's another rabbit trail.)
So this is all circular reasoning. I see scripture talking about the Right Hand of God and also the Left Hand. I believe the Left Hand is where the evil influences spring from, such as the lying spirit God sent to Ahab, Hebrews tells us that God scourges every Son. And many other verses support God using people, other nations, etc. as His tools to inflict discipline in order to turn His people.
I am not sure I can explain it, but in my view, God viewed every scenario and chose this one. In this one, we are allowed an illusion of free will and self determination, the opportunities to use information from past choices in the next choice we make, and so on, until, at some point, we are where God has ultimatley planned for us to be.
I don't see that God could have created us and not known what we would do, how we think, etc. No matter what way He did it. A human who creates a robot knows exactly how its mechanism for inferring logic and choices works. As humans are fallible tho, the robot might malfunction and not be able to work at all, or because of some mistake by that creator, it may do something unexpected. But the God I see, the one I believe the Bible reveals, declares everything is out of Him and through Him and To Him. So I don't believe He was surprised or withheld knowledge from Himself. I don't think anything we do actually surprises Him, and I don't think even any idea could be something He didn't think of. Yes, I believe God arranged for all the horrible things that happen so that we have a full and unlimited knowledge of evil, all of which was included in the tree of knowledge and evil, since He created that too. Some might want to compare Him doing this to an evil man who tortures his children just because it pleases him or because he is insane, but I see it as a God who desired for His children to know evil as He knows it. In order for Him to be God, in my opinion, He knew the full extent of evil before He created us. But He WILL redeem us, (He has but from our vantage point we are not there yet). He allowed us to crucify His beloved son and I believe this was not only for Him to reconcile us, but for us to reconcile to Him. All our pain was laid on Him, the pain we are made to endure. This is OUR satisfaction, that we know He knows our pain and losses. And who would say that that wasn't good enough? Especially when He makes us whole, seats us in the heavenlies, presents us an eternity to enjoy true life without evil or sorrow or tears.
We, as parents, do not have to provide an experience of evil for our children because evil is already in the world and they will encounter it quite early in life. WE do however, begin very early to teach them that they must share, must refrain from doing what they want, for their own health and safety and to ensure the harmony of first the family, and then the outside world. They learn consequences of not heeding 'laws' and they learn pain, they learn they must wait sometimes before the parent tends to their needs. If you know of a child who hasn't hit a sibling either to get a toy he wants away from him or for taking his toy, or doesn't throw a tantrum because the parent doesn't give him attention or whatever the moment he wants it, there is probably something biologically wrong with that child. (And I believe that serves His purposes also and that child will be fully satisfied when God has brought Him to the place of a Son) A child MIGHT be loving and seemingly appreciate a parent who always showered him with love, attention, all its needs, but the longer that situation lasts, I would bet the bigger and nastier the tantrum that would occur the first time he didn't get what he wanted.
I regret that some think I have painted a reprehensible picture of our God. I don't agree. But obviously, in my view, God provided for many to have differing opinions to test our own ideas against.
Job, whether an actual man or a metaphor, was declared by God to be perfect and righteous, yet when He brought him to Satan's attention he was not tried or tested. When the book ended, He was tested and tried and stronger. Job 23:10 He knows the way that I take. When He tries me, I shall come forth as refined gold. God did not mean to have children with hedges built around them, IN MY OPINION, lol.
The swordsmith takes raw metal, hammers it, purges the dross out in the fire, and creates an instrument fit for the use for which it was prepared.
I believe the mistake many make, is that we think we are supposed to learn a few things and do certain things in this life and then we will have a reward in eternity. My opinion is that He intentionally created clay/raw material which would have to be hammered and fired in order to be strong. THIS LIFE is the forge and God is preparing sons, preparing us for a much higher purpose. To me, the end all isn't about bringing us home to Himself, but tho that is included, and I see a rest for us certainly, but I see that as just the BEGINNING and we will see what He has planned for the next ages. I imagine it to be quite exciting. But that's just me.
Hi ScarletWren,
you brought up some interesting points in your post.
Like the robot analogy. Of course God knew what would happen to the man He created! If a mother knows full well the types of mischief a child can get into, undoubtedly our Creator also knows well what we are able to do. (Or better, what we are NOT able to do.)
Man does seem to have a certain "liberty." But this liberty is not the type to be able to save himself without God. In fact, he is really no match even for satan most of the time, who can make him fall with just a word or two. Adam was not bound up by the devil and forced to eat of the Tree of Knowledge. Nope. Satan just enticed him, and he fell.
The clay and metal-in-the-fire analogies are very biblical, and I think pertinent to the issue at hand, too. God forms us. We may have the freedom to choose to trust in Him or not, but if we aren't trusting, He still reaches us through what we go through in life, until we finally cry out to Him.
I think of people who are (aisi) deceived into joining the military. (What is the military for, but to kill?) And how many soldiers, wounded and dying, call out to God to save them. Perhaps finally in that moment, do they know the importance of peace, and salvation.
I disagree that God is on trial, and that is because of two things:
1) Job, in his carnal thinking, accused God of doing him wrong. "Why don't you just kill me?" was his accusation. His position towards God was wrong because he believed he was right and God was wrong.
2) Satan didn't put God on trial. Satan wanted to kill Job. And, he tried to instigate God to do unrighteousness by telling God to kill Job Himself. But God, in His wisdom, told satan, "you go." And so satan went to do what he knows to do: steal, kill and destroy.
Of course, God didn't just do this to "see what happens" or "for fun." God did it because His Eternal Plan for Job was to bring Job's pride to nought. And He did, by allowing satan to do a certain work. No more, no less.
There is, as I see it now, another valuable lesson for all of us, in this situation. Namely this:
no matter who we are, or no matter what problems in life we may be facing... IF we are trusting in God to take care of it, we can REJOICE in knowing that we are HIS and that He is doing the RIGHT thing in our lives, no matter what anyone else says.
Job would have still been righteous, if he hadn't started accusing God of treating him wrongly. His idea of his self-righteous standing caused him to upbraid God when things happened to him that others would have deemed "ungodly." In fact, Job's friends were sure he was sinning. But they didn't help him at all. They only accused him.
If Job had accepted his situation in life, and rested in the assurance that God his Maker would take care of him, he wouldn't have accused God of wrongdoing, and he wouldn't have been found guilty.
Peace,
brian
Job did not accuse God of any wrong
In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing. Job 1:22
Job definetly thought all that was happening to his world was by the hand of God. Like pneuma said, until God made himself known to Job in the whirlwind and had a few choice words with him about his understanding of God,Job's world was in ruin, yet after God spoke to him, the latter part of his life was more blessed than his first part.
We have to bear in mind just because Job said something and its recorded in scripture does not mean what he said is correct.
This is one thing we know for cerain he got correct ....Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,things too wonderful for me to know.
Job said The Lord gives The Lord takes away, he is wrong .......... The gift of God is irrevocable
In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing. Job 1:22
Job definetly thought all that was happening to his world was by the hand of God. Like pneuma said, until God made himself known to Job in the whirlwind and had a few choice words with him about his understanding of God,Job's world was in ruin, yet after God spoke to him, the latter part of his life was more blessed than his first part.
We have to bear in mind just because Job said something and its recorded in scripture does not mean what he said is correct.
This is one thing we know for cerain he got correct ....Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,things too wonderful for me to know.
Job said The Lord gives The Lord takes away, he is wrong .......... The gift of God is irrevocable
Hi pcamps!
Job spoke righteously until ch. 3. From ch 3 till he faced the Almighty, it was one accusation after another. If we are able to hear it, this helps us to learn what is right and wrong in our own lives, too.
Hi pcamps!
Job spoke righteously until ch. 3. From ch 3 till he faced the Almighty, it was one accusation after another. If we are able to hear it, this helps us to learn what is right and wrong in our own lives, too.
Blessings bro,
brian
So Job learnt nothing from his life in ruins, he failed the test and surely if you fail the test you have to go through it again until you pass the test. So being put through the mill and back by the command of God( your opinion) served no purpose, because he continually accused God . He was nailed by God and survived it for no reason whatsoever.
So Job learnt nothing from his life in ruins, he failed the test and surely if you fail the test you have to go through it again until you pass the test. So being put through the mill and back by the command of God( your opinion) served no purpose, because he continually accused God . He was nailed by God and survived it for no reason whatsoever.
The suffering does in fact appear to have been insufficient, as you'll note in ch. 32 that "his friends stopped talking to him because he was righteous in his own eyes." It's like a brick wall. It didn't come crashing down until he realized how puny he was. "Where were YOU when I made the heavens?" was God's beautiful question.
Many Christians suffer from this. They think they're right, and it will take nothing other than a face-to-face meeting with God for them to realize that they're not the "pillars of right" that they thought they were. Humility, is something we all need. Me included.
so the question then becomes: did God know that the buffeting of satan would be insufficient for Job to abandon his pride?
Maybe He knew it would be insufficient, maybe not.
Or, maybe this story was to show us (readers) that even the buffeting of satan can't get through the wall of self-pride.
OR, perhaps satan wasn't sufficient because Job didn't have the Holy Spirit? After all, Paul had the Spirit, and he knew the purpose of satan's buffeting him, and my hunch is that it was effective.
The suffering does in fact appear to have been insufficient, as you'll note in ch. 32 that "his friends stopped talking to him because he was righteous in his own eyes." It's like a brick wall. It didn't come crashing down until he realized how puny he was. "Where were YOU when I made the heavens?" was God's beautiful question.
Many Christians suffer from this. They think they're right, and it will take nothing other than a face-to-face meeting with God for them to realize that they're not the "pillars of right" that they thought they were. Humility, is something we all need. Me included.
Good point..!
Peace,
brian
Brian I find that most Christians like Job have a very poor self image and when they are going through it, just like Job they wonder what exactly it is they have done wrong. Job was not accusing God, he was beating himself up and accusing and condemning himself.
Evangelical Fundamentalsts with their obsession with sin and accusing everyone of being self righteous have made your average christian see themselves as the worm they(the Fundy) see themselves as being.
Brian I find that most Christians like Job have a very poor self image and when they are going through it, just like Job they wonder what exactly it is they have done wrong. Job was not accusing God, he was beating himself up and accusing and condemning himself.
Evangelical Fundamentalsts with their obsession with sin and accusing everyone of being self righteous have made your average christian see themselves as the worm they(the Fundy) see themselves as being.
Why is it that people's lives are often so "radically changed" when they get saved? Is it not perhaps because they have understood their low position, and admitted it to God? To God, humility is a very big thing. It's definitely more important to God than it is to modern society. The world tells us we are great, we are self-sufficient, we are strong, etc.
But Paul reached a point where he said, "when I am weak, then am I strong." Complete dependence on God.
And isn't it the most natural stance to take? After all, when we look upon the world from a mountaintop, or contemplate the stars, or the depths of the seas... who would dare to say that they don't need God??
I agree that fundies unfortunately often change very rapidly from "I need help" to "you need my help." We all need to remember our Creator, in lowliness. I think God values this lowliness more than we know, and blesses us when we remember it. We may learn to be able to "call the shots" one day, but we're not there yet.
Why is it that people's lives are often so "radically changed" when they get saved? Is it not perhaps because they have understood their low position, and admitted it to God? To God, humility is a very big thing. It's definitely more important to God than it is to modern society. The world tells us we are great, we are self-sufficient, we are strong, etc.
But Paul reached a point where he said, "when I am weak, then am I strong." Complete dependence on God.
And isn't it the most natural stance to take? After all, when we look upon the world from a mountaintop, or contemplate the stars, or the depths of the seas... who would dare to say that they don't need God??
I agree that fundies unfortunately often change very rapidly from "I need help" to "you need my help." We all need to remember our Creator, in lowliness. I think God values this lowliness more than we know, and blesses us when we remember it. We may learn to be able to "call the shots" one day, but we're not there yet.
Peace,
brian
Brian if our lives are radically changed by becoming saved, why do you believe that God needs to drag us through the mill and back ?. Our lives begin to change( be transformed)by the renewal of the mind, knowing that Christ is in, that the image we behold(Jesus Christ)is a reflection of who we really are and come hell or high water we walk above the storm of life. It's not overnight transformation its line upon line ,here a little there a little, despising not small beginnings, even nature teaches this.
Yes humility is a big thing, what is born of the flesh is flesh, what's born of God is God, nothing wrong with recognizing what born of the flesh is and what born of God is. It's humble to acknowledge what is born of the flesh is flesh, it takes faith to acknowledge and see beyond what is born of the flesh to see what is born of God.
God knows what we are in the flesh and it gets weary for him for us to remind him what we are in the flesh......His reply is Behold the Lamb of God, in beholding him you will see who you really are.
Brian if our lives are radically changed by becoming saved, why do you believe that God needs to drag us through the mill and back ?. Our lives begin to change( be transformed)by the renewal of the mind, knowing that Christ is in, that the image we behold(Jesus Christ)is a reflection of who we really are and come hell or high water we walk above the storm of life. It's not overnight transformation its line upon line ,here a little there a little, despising not small beginnings, even nature teaches this.
Yes humility is a big thing, what is born of the flesh is flesh, what's born of God is God, nothing wrong with recognizing what born of the flesh is and what born of God is. It's humble to acknowledge what is born of the flesh is flesh, it takes faith to acknowledge and see beyond what is born of the flesh to see what is born of God.
God knows what we are in the flesh and it gets weary for him for us to remind him what we are in the flesh......His reply is Behold the Lamb of God, in beholding him you will see who you really are.
Throughout the Gospel accounts, I believe that what Jesus taught was not understood, mainly because no one had ever had the Holy Ghost.
Still, we do sometimes have to go through the mill and back, as you say. Only, it's not God who drags us through it, but ourselves. When we hit rock bottom (or before, if we're able), then we turn to Him and He saves us. He's our Savior.
And, if satan has to work in order for us to reach this point, so be it.
Blessings,
brian
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