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[quote=MysticPhD;27901512]WE have Dominion by God's express and Sovereign Will, brian. He will not intervene on earth. He will exert His influence on our Will . . . but we can ignore Him.
Quote:
God's EXISTENCE establishes our reality and how it functions . . . NOT God's Will. God's Will is separate from the mandates of His very existence.Satan is NOT under God's control. Satan is us. If there is to be any control . . . WE must provide it by restraining our willful impulses to do Evil. Natural disasters and disease, etc. are NOT Evil because there is no Will directing them . . . neither God's nor ours.
If natural disasters and disease are not evil, and there is no will directing them, then where does that leave God? It seems you are suggesting that we live in a world of chaos..?
Let's take the case of Job again. (I use Job because it seems to consider things from several angles.)
God mentioned Job to satan (not vice versa). Satan's accusations regarding Job were that he was serving God for selfish reasons, etc.
But apparently God knew more about Job than satan did. When God let down the hedge that protected Job, I think He knew that Job had a serious problem with self-righteousness, and He allowed Job to get all tied up in unjust accusations (from ch 3 -31!) before confronting him directly.
At that point, when Job saw God's glory, he repented in ashes, and much humility, of all his big words.
Did God need for Job to go through all that suffering? I don't know. But I see that God gave Job plenty of rope to hang himself first.
So we do indeed have a certain freedom: either to hang ourselves (so to speak) or to resist satan's temptations and trust God alone, and His plans, whatever they may be.
Peace,
brian
Ok, so you are basically saying it's the second option I offered... the bread scenario, correct?
(I know the bread scenario was a bit lame, but that IS what you're basically saying?)
yes?
no? I'm confused. lol.
Brian, you've been saying all along that God uses the devil to destroy our unrighteousness. If that really is the case, it makes no sense that God would want to destroy that work, and rebuild that unrighteousness.
Your belief is at odds with itself and with these passages. It makes no sense to believe that God causes the very thing God is working to destroy.
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
This is at odds with what you've been saying, Brian. You and Shana believe that it is necessary for us to experience the opposite of good in order to know what good is; you've been saying that it is necessary for evil to be committed in order for us to learn about good, to learn about suffering and forgiveness and mercy. Why then, according to your beliefs, would God want us to resist temptation, when God intends for us to commit evil in order to learn about good? If, as you believe, committing evil is necessary, then it is absolutely imperative that at least some of us NOT resist temptation.
That is why I say what they believe makes them double speak.
God is controlling everything, but God is NOT responsible for what He controls.
Brian i can understand the things of God being hard to understand,but much of what you are saying on your posts on here is conflicting. It seems that you have changed your stance, then going back and forth from your original stance. I hope this is a sign of cracks appearing in the the stronghold of the sovereignty of God ministry you are held by(what you believe rules you).
But we know that that is not how God is, because Jesus gave us the reassurance that the Father is just like he was. Did Jesus war? Only against spiritual wickedness in heavenly places.
So if Jesus didn't kill women and children, then we know that that is not what God the Father does, either.
So the only thing we can speculate is why God would give such a command, since He would not do such a thing. We have Jesus as proof of this.
Peace,
brian
Jesus also destroyed the works of the devil brother, so according to your the understanding above should you not then realise that evil and the things the devil does is NOT what God the Father does?
That is why I say what they believe makes them double speak.
God is controlling everything, but God is NOT responsible for what He controls.
It makes absolutly no sense.
I have to agree, pneuma. It is very difficult discuss their beliefs when it seems like the goal posts keep changing. (Having once believed the same way, I understand this ... it is the "cognitive discord" I was speaking of.)
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Originally Posted by ahigherway
<snip>I don't think I said that we need to experience evil in order to know what good is. <snip>
Okay, Brian, this is not the case ^^^^.
Based on what you are now saying you believe can we go back to these posts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Brian, you've been saying all along that God uses the devil to destroy our unrighteousness. If that really is the case, it makes no sense that God would want to destroy that work, and rebuild that unrighteousness.
Your belief is at odds with itself and with these passages. It makes no sense to believe that God causes the very thing God is working to destroy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
This is at odds with what you've been saying, Brian. You and Shana believe that it is necessary for us to experience the opposite of good in order to know what good is; you've been saying that it is necessary for evil to be committed in order for us to learn about good, to learn about suffering and forgiveness and mercy. Why then, according to your beliefs, would God want us to resist temptation, when God intends for us to commit evil in order to learn about good? If, as you believe, committing evil is necessary, then it is absolutely imperative that at least some of us NOT resist temptation.
I don't want it to feel like we're all "piling on" you and bombarding you with posts. Just, when you get a chance, if you could respond I'd appreciate it.
Pleroo, the fact that suffering is intertwined with Love doesn't mean that there can be no Love without it. In this life, there is suffering and Love. But someday (I believe) the suffering will vanish, but the Love will remain.
You say that man "reaps what he sows." Yes.
Did Jesus "reap what he sowed?" I don't think he sowed to the flesh, but he did suffer greatly.
Peace,
brian
Yes but He suffered for our sins.
When He was beaten and crusified it was because of our sins.
This does not mean what you think it does.
Example: If I preach the Gospel and get beaten and thrown into prison I am suffering for the sins of those who beat me.
Jesus suffering did end in a literal cross, but it was because of the sins of others.
The accusation is implicit in the belief that God willfully controls it. No . . . God does not control when and where it happens, brian . . . WE do because only WE (as willful agents) can create Evil. Evil is ALWAYS the result of willful action. This is the problem with retaining the ancient ignorance of our ancestors' beliefs about God. It is why so many actually believe God willfully demanded that Christ be scourged and crucified so horribly as payment for our sins. He did NOT. God allowed our free will to impose the suffering on Christ because our ancestors' sins and barbarity insured that we "know not what we do." The key is that we have Dominion by God's Sovereign Will and He will not rescind it. Your misunderstanding of Job is a stumbling block for you, brian.
It is really difficult to pin you down, lol. You believe God intentionally designed man in such a way that man MUST experience being and doing evil, or that God couldn't have designed man in a way that would allow man NOT to be and do evil, or ... what?
It is hard to pin down because of all the double speak they have to go through.
They believe that God created Adam with the preplan that Adam sin and fall away from God and that because God is omniscient Adam HAD to follow this preplan of Gods.
Then they say God is not responsible for mans sin.
Can you not see the double speak?
God planned for man to sin, and man HAD to sin according to that plan, but God is not responsible for His own plan.
It makes no sense.
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I'm confused. lol.
