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Right, a spirit does not have flesh and bones [ 1st Cor. 15 v 50 ] and that is why the post-resurrected Jesus used different materialized bodies. The disciples would not be able to see the 'spirit Jesus' unless he was in a visible body.
That particular materialized body with the wounded hands and feet was used for doubting Thomas sake.
The materialized body Jesus used when he appeared to Mary did not have wounds because Mary mistook Jesus for the garden care taker at John [20 vs 14,15 ]. Jesus disciples did not recognize the body Jesus used at John 21 v 4.
Also, at Luke [ 24 v 16 ] they did not recognize Jesus because they asked if Jesus was a stranger at verse 18.
If that body had wounds there would have been no reason to think they were talking to a stranger visiting Jerusalem.
Jesus vanishes out of their sight in verse 31. To assure his followers he was no ghost or apparition he invited them to eat or dine with him [ verses 30, 35,41-43 ]
Jesus had the same physical appearance after his resurrection as he did before his death. He was not raised in a 'physical' or earthly body, but raised in a 'spiritual' body. A 'spiritual' body is quite different than being a spirit which has no substance. It was not that Jesus had a different for, or appearance than before his resurrection, but that he hid himself from them. He had done this during his life on at least three occasions (Luke 4:28-30, John 8:57-59, John 10:32 and John 12:36). In Luke 24, Jesus does the same thing with the two disciples he met on the road to Emmaus. Luke records that 'they were prevented from recognizing him' (vs. 16) then later that 'their eyes were opened, and the recognized him' (vs 31). Jesus didn't change his form from one body into another while he was with them, rather he just made it so they did not recognize him until later. In all of the cited passages, Jesus didn't change his body, he simply made it so that they did not recognize him.
It is interesting that in Luke 24:39 Jesus uses the word 'flesh and bone' and not 'flesh and blood.' In 1 Corinthians 15:50, Paul says that 'flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God....' It is possible that Paul is simply saying that in our natural state, that of bondage to sin, man has no inheritance in the Kingdom, but only those that have been born again and are spiritually alive to Christ. I do not think this is what Paul is stating exactly, rather that he is telling us what kind of body we will have in the resurrection, a body not of flesh and blood, but one like Jesus' resurrected body, that of 'flesh and bone.'
The question then becomes, where is the body? What is the point of the resurrection if there is no body? That was the whole point of Job's hope in the resurrection, that while he was dead and in the grave the worms would heat his body, but he would rise from the dead at some future time. If all he was hoping for was a symbolic spiritual resurrection, his spirit already lived on in Abraham's bosom. While he was translated from that part of Sheol that the righteous rested into Heaven at the time of Christ's death, he will still be raised in bodily form in the resurrection. So if Jesus wasn't really raised in his body, then what's the point of the resurrection, and why are those who sleep raised before the living? It simple confuses the teaching of the resurrection if Christ was not raised bodily. Thus Paul's conclusion that if Christ was not raised, then we are of all men most miserable. (1 Cor. 15:19) But that is not the case, the dead are raised in a bodily form, not like our earthly one in it's infirmities, but rather in a glorified one; one that can enter into the presence of God in Heaven. We will eat and till the earth, so we will have substance and not just be ethereal spirits. That is the substance of what Jesus was saying, "I'm not a spirit, but my body has been raised from the dead in a new glorious form. Come eat with me and see that I'm telling you the truth, because spirit's cannot eat food!"
Amaznjohn;28235695]Ah... Pascal's Wager. What if you're wrong, and Thor is the correct god? You believe in the Judeo/Christian god because you were born into a Christian society, I presume. If you were born in early Scandinavia you would believe in Thor, or in Ancient Greece, you would believe in Zeus, or in Pakistan, you would follow Muhammad and pray to Allah. What if you are wrong simply because you were born here by the luck of the draw?
I'll take my chances.
I don't know what your reasons were for going from being a christian to being a non-believer. Care to share?
I'm curious why you would waste your time on a christian forum. Could it be that there is still a little spark of faith in your heart? I hope so John.
I don't know what your reasons were for going from being a christian to being a non-believer. Care to share?
I'm curious why you would waste your time on a christian forum. Could it be that there is still a little spark of faith in your heart? I hope so John.
Peace,
Katie
I appreciate your concern. But, the reason I'm on a Christian forum is because I can provide some perspective into some questions that are posed here. Most posters on here only look at these things from the point of view of belief and faith, of which neither are a pathway to truth. Certainly there is still a bit of deprogramming that needs to occur in my brain since the days of family, friends, and churchgoers constantly pounding their ideology in my brain full of mush. But, I've matured in my atheism to the point that I believe I can now help my Christian friends who struggled as I did with my questions that I could not answer reasonably and logically.
I don't think my being here is a waste of time. As has been the case here, I expect many to just throw up their hands and proclaim "Don't question God", and "It just takes faith". I tried that myself, until it became clear to me that I was only fooling myself into believing something without evidence that it existed. But, when people came to me with the same arguments that I now use, I slowly, very slowly, realized I was wrong. That's what I hope to accomplish here by providing a different perspective on these issues.
I appreciate your concern. But, the reason I'm on a Christian forum is because I can provide some perspective into some questions that are posed here. Most posters on here only look at these things from the point of view of belief and faith, of which neither are a pathway to truth. Certainly there is still a bit of deprogramming that needs to occur in my brain since the days of family, friends, and churchgoers constantly pounding their ideology in my brain full of mush. But, I've matured in my atheism to the point that I believe I can now help my Christian friends who struggled as I did with my questions that I could not answer reasonably and logically.
I don't think my being here is a waste of time. As has been the case here, I expect many to just throw up their hands and proclaim "Don't question God", and "It just takes faith". I tried that myself, until it became clear to me that I was only fooling myself into believing something without evidence that it existed. But, when people came to me with the same arguments that I now use, I slowly, very slowly, realized I was wrong. That's what I hope to accomplish here by providing a different perspective on these issues.
Well as far as faith goes, the bible commands us to have it. Yes there are many things in the bible that seems far fetched, but if one is going to have faith to believe one part, you might as well have faith to believe the entire thing and believe God protects his word.
It takes more faith to believe there is no God and we just happened to pop up rather than to belive in a creator and even if there was a big bang, someone had to create the bang.
But providing a different perspective on these issues isnt necessarily bad as long as your not here to start drama on every different topic like a certain member who was in-love with COG and H Armstrong used to do here. It also challenges others to actually read the bible in its context and stop relying on there pastor and show themselves approval. In the last year ive seen some things ive been taught is straight tradition in the church rather than what the bible teaches, and i have tried to correct it to the best of my ability.
Well as far as faith goes, the bible commands us to have it. Yes there are many things in the bible that seems far fetched, but if one is going to have faith to believe one part, you might as well have faith to believe the entire thing and believe God protects his word.
It takes more faith to believe there is no God and we just happened to pop up rather than to belive in a creator and even if there was a big bang, someone had to create the bang.
But providing a different perspective on these issues isnt necessarily bad as long as your not here to start drama on every different topic like a certain member who was in-love with COG and H Armstrong used to do here. It also challenges others to actually read the bible in its context and stop relying on there pastor and show themselves approval. In the last year ive seen some things ive been taught is straight tradition in the church rather than what the bible teaches, and i have tried to correct it to the best of my ability.
I appreciate your concern. But, the reason I'm on a Christian forum is because I can provide some perspective into some questions that are posed here. Most posters on here only look at these things from the point of view of belief and faith, of which neither are a pathway to truth. Certainly there is still a bit of deprogramming that needs to occur in my brain since the days of family, friends, and churchgoers constantly pounding their ideology in my brain full of mush. But, I've matured in my atheism to the point that I believe I can now help my Christian friends who struggled as I did with my questions that I could not answer reasonably and logically.
I don't think my being here is a waste of time. As has been the case here, I expect many to just throw up their hands and proclaim "Don't question God", and "It just takes faith". I tried that myself, until it became clear to me that I was only fooling myself into believing something without evidence that it existed. But, when people came to me with the same arguments that I now use, I slowly, very slowly, realized I was wrong. That's what I hope to accomplish here by providing a different perspective on these issues.
Thank you for explaining John.
What happened to you happens to many. You were programmed by others.
I'm not going to try to change your mind, but I am curious about something. Have you ever read the Bible, cover to cover, start to finish, just you and your Bible, without outside influences?
I ask because just like you, I was taught a bunch of lies (by well meaning folks) from the time I was a baby. I was programmed. It wasn't until years later that I discovered things I believed wholeheartedly weren't true at all. It's amazing that I didn't throw the towel in right then.
But little by little, I muddled through reading the Bible. Like you, I questioned many things, but I still wasn't ready to say it was a fallacy. I stuck it out. The funny thing is, my faith in God didn't weaken. If anything it got stronger. I saw so many proofs that God exists, not only in through reading the Bible, but in my daily life. The proofs for the existence of God far outnumbered the negatives.
I wonder what your hope is? What have you to look forward to when you leave this world?
What happened to you happens to many. You were programmed by others.
I'm not going to try to change your mind, but I am curious about something. Have you ever read the Bible, cover to cover, start to finish, just you and your Bible, without outside influences?
I ask because just like you, I was taught a bunch of lies (by well meaning folks) from the time I was a baby. I was programmed. It wasn't until years later that I discovered things I believed wholeheartedly weren't true at all. It's amazing that I didn't throw the towel in right then.
But little by little, I muddled through reading the Bible. Like you, I questioned many things, but I still wasn't ready to say it was a fallacy. I stuck it out. The funny thing is, my faith in God didn't weaken. If anything it got stronger. I saw so many proofs that God exists, not only in through reading the Bible, but in my daily life. The proofs for the existence of God far outnumbered the negatives.
I wonder what your hope is? What have you to look forward to when you leave this world?
I'll let it go, for now.
Thanks for posting.
Peace,
Katie
Yes, I've read the Bible completely, at least twice, maybe more. Now answer a question for me please. Of all of the proofs that you've found that your god exists, is there one that is objective, verifiable, concrete evidence that you can show me?
My hope is that people will stop depending upon mystical beings and stop working toward living forever in a fairy tale land worshiping an egotistical, maniacal, narcissist, instead, focusing on doing the best they can in the only proven world we have, making it the best we can make it for ourselves and those who follow. I don't mean to be insulting, I'm just being honest. I have nothing to look forward to when leaving this world, nor do I have anything to fear. I'm not afraid that my friends or family will be punished forever in Hell fire or whatever you think is the punishment for not believing.
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