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So....we can be "born again", but not among the elect?
IMO, YES ... because man with his inherited sin nature and his wonderful free-will is
extremely capable of CHOOSING to NOT obey ... CHOOSING to be disobedient ... and many etcs.
IMO, the "whosoever believes" people can be taken to mean the elect.
Mind-boggling to say the least ... but, a great possibility.
I have another thread entitled ...
God’s reasons for "somewhat hiding" spiritual truths in the Bible
I.E. there are opposing doctrinal views because of 2 sets of seemingly-opposing Scriptures!
Not for the faint of heart!
IMO, YES ... because man with his inherited sin nature and his wonderful free-will
is extremely capable of CHOOSING to NOT obey ... CHOOSING to be disobedient ... and many etcs.
IMO, the "whosoever believes" people can be taken to mean the elect.
Mind-boggling to say the least ... but, a great possibility.
I have another thread entitled ...
God’s reasons for "somewhat hiding" spiritual truths in the Bible
I.E. there are opposing doctrinal views because of 2 sets of seemingly-opposing Scriptures!
Not for the faint of heart!
Sanctification is not something we do rather it is the work of the Holy Spirit. 2 Thessalonians 2:13
The Holy Spirit sanctifies me when he brings me to faith in Jesus. 1 Corinthians 6:11 The means by which we are sanctified is through the Word and Sacraments. John 17:17, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:44-48, Matthew 26:26-28
Sanctification by the Holy Spirit happens when we are called out of the unbelieving world, to be holy\perfect by faith in Jesus by the Gospel ... in the Word and in the sacraments which are the means of grace.
Sanctification is not something we do rather it is the work of the Holy Spirit.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
The Holy Spirit sanctifies me when he brings me to faith in Jesus. 1 Corinthians 6:11 The means by which we are sanctified is through the Word and Sacraments.
John 17:17, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:44-48, Matthew 26:26-28
Sanctification by the Holy Spirit happens when we are called out of the unbelieving world, to be holy\perfect by faith in Jesus by the Gospel ... in the Word and in the sacraments which are the means of grace.
You are mostly talking about POSITIONAL (set apart) sanctification here.
Look, pal, I'm going to set you apart to be an engineer.
I'm a-gonna pay for da works ... everything.
You just show up for classes, study, etc.
But, settin' you apart does not guarantee me that you'll make it through.
NO ...
it's the PROCESS of sanctification that counts ... co-operating with God, being obedient, etc.
How can anyone claim that they are "saved" (past tense) when they can sin and lose it at any time?
Faith alone is salvation.
Faith + works is probation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
Why have evangelicals made good works a dirty concept ?.
Actually your side has given the appearance that people who believe in faith alone for salvation consider works as dirty. We understand the importance of good works. We are trying to put them in their proper place.
Yes--Christians are known for our love for God and for others. We prove our faith by our works. But our good works do not MAKE us Christians. We must remember that they come in the proper order. Our faith is a cause of our works. We are not saved by faith + works.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
Yes we are.
Vizio is right, pcamps. We are saved by Christ, period. That means we have absolutely NOTHING to do with our salvation. The problem is that salvation is not the thing we need to worry about . . . because Christ took care of that. Our "works" (thoughts, feeling and deeds) throughout our lives DO matter because they will be judged by the consuming fire of God's pure love. The parts of our lives that are "hay, stubble, wood, etc." will be refined out as dross . . . but we are "saved as by fire" along with the parts of our lives that are love ("gold, silver, etc."). EITHER way we are SAVED by what CHRIST DID . . . not our efforts.
What are all of the dozens of heavy-duty warnings for?
Jesus' warnings in the gospels?
The warnings to the churches?
Jesus' warnings in Revelation chapters 2, 3, 21, and 22?
Oh yes, I forgot ... they're warnings to not forget to believe!
There are consequences that have nothing to do with being saved. We will reap what we sow. That is NOT trivial. If we sow destruction, pain, sorrow, etc. . . . guess what we will reap??? Repentance is a way of "pre-paying" what we sowed by renewing our minds and "re-thinking, re-feeling and un-doing" (to the extent we CAN) what we sowed under the grace of Christ. IF we do not . . . those parts of our lives will be "refined" out as dross (hay, stubble, wood, etc.) as we reap what we sowed under the glare of God's pure love. I do not imagine that will be very pleasant . . . hence the warnings. But we are still "saved as by fire" with the love and repentance (gold, silver,etc.) in our lives.
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