U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-06-2013, 11:27 AM
 
6,822 posts, read 6,049,731 times
Reputation: 3757

Advertisements

As I study the various covenants to determine the contionality of them, I think it's clear of one concept.. The circumcision of the heart is the prime characteristic of a true child of God. So the question stands, is your heart circumcised? This is a question we all need to ask ourselves.

Romans 2:28-29 let's us know that what matters is not the outward appearance, but what is in the heart what counts. This is why depending upon physical circumcision (a requirement under the law to be in the covenant)(The body of Christ is circumcised physically through Christ as He fulfilled the righteous requirements for us). There are many other passages that tell us this. If any one is in Christ, all things become new and old things have passed away. It's not a "work" but condition of a new heart, one that wants to live and please God. Who's praise is not of men but of God.. Many passages telling us this. The new heart and desire to live after the Spirit produces fruit as all that are saved are being conformed to the image of Christ.

I've been doing some study on who is circumcising the heart. Under the old covenant, there is a clear warning for the Israelites to circumcise their hearts. (Jeremiah 4:4). The consequence for not doing so was clearly the wrath of God. This talks about an active pursuit on their part of circumcising their heart - symbolizing a life foresaking sin and the flesh life actively pursuing God and life after the Spirit.

I've been researching and comparing that of the old covenant with the new. It seems clear to me that circumcision of the heart is still the requirement. I believe under the new covenant God is doing the circumcising. In Deuteronomy 30:6, it states God is the one circumcising the heart. There are many passages regarding the new covenant in which proclaims that He will put His law in our mind and write them on our heart. His promise is that He will be our God and we will be His people. It actually says we "shall" obey His commands as a result of this. The purpose is of course fruit. It's quite clear God is looking for fruit in His people.

What I've been struggling with really is Romans 6. I'd love to find a detailed exposition of the chapter. When I'm saying detailed, I mean a detailed analysis of every word in the Greek. So if anyone can point me to a resource that does that, that would be highly appreciated.

The reason why is it seems that in Romans 6 an individual has the choice to either 1) reckon (by faith) that they are dead to sin being a slave of righteousness leading to everlasting life or 2) not reckoning ourselves dead to sin and self by faith being a slave of sin leading to death. Now some theologians would suggest that the death here is not the second death, but that is bringing their theological presuppositions and interpretation into the text. Not to say they that they are wrong, but I think it's wise to only let the text speak.

I find it interesting that Paul says "thankfully you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine delivered unto you (romans 6). It does seem as if he is presuming obedience when he goes on to discuss his case in romans 7, 8, etc. This is in agreement with the OT in which God declares really that we will obey him. Obedience not being what the covenant's condition is predicated upon to be valid, but the fruit of regeneration in the new birth where the believer can say, "I delight to do thy will Oh God, thy law is written in my heart.

So comments? Can one that is regenerated choose to obey sin and death? According to the book of ephesians, those sealed by the Holy Spirit are "sealed until the day of redemption". Is it presumed that all that are regenerate by the new birth will obey from the heart due to a heart that God has circumcised? I haven't been totally satisfied with the commentaries/expositions I've come across.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-06-2013, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 9,461,007 times
Reputation: 1856
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikelee81 View Post
What I've been struggling with really is Romans 6. I'd love to find a detailed exposition of the chapter. When I'm saying detailed, I mean a detailed analysis of every word in the Greek. So if anyone can point me to a resource that does that, that would be highly appreciated.

So comments? Can one that is regenerated choose to obey sin and death? According to the book of ephesians, those sealed by the Holy Spirit are "sealed until the day of redemption". Is it presumed that all that are regenerate by the new birth will obey from the heart due to a heart that God has circumcised? I haven't been totally satisfied with the commentaries/expositions I've come across.
The easiest resource I know of is Biblios.com. You would have to go through the passages that concern you verse by verse to get a breakdown of the Greek including word type and form. Do you have any training in foreign language? The definitions there are generally appropriate, but if you want to check out various shades of meaning, you should have a good lexicon available, possibly library or church library.

Circumcision of the heart is a change of direction, purpose, intent or whatever word you choose to describe a life changing experience. "Baptism of fire" is good. Changing purpose does not mean that the old urges will be gone, but that we can see a better way.....,.,. if we keep our eyes fixed on the value of living in love.

That may be a start for you. I hope it helps, but don't get lost in the forest because you are looking too hard at the trees.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-06-2013, 02:51 PM
 
9,216 posts, read 8,702,256 times
Reputation: 1719
The circumcision of the Heart is the righteous Spirit that God puts into His converts , and people are required to keep cleansed as to keep peace for Jesus spirit to abide in these believers ..Like in Romans 8: 10-21......``But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you , He that raised up Christ from the dead will also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwells in you ..``......... comes through the Baptism of Holy Spirit , so If people still need to get the Baptism of Holy Spirit , then they need to Repent again and again and get water baptized again to prove to the Lord Jesus of your conviction for salvation to His plan ........... If you tried and tried but still no witness in Christ Spirit , well you should try a different church , and God honor the leader tolerances and it they are stuck in Legalism with no witness of the Baptism of Holy Spirit in the people of your church, then change churches
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-06-2013, 05:05 PM
 
367 posts, read 331,464 times
Reputation: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
The circumcision of the Heart is the righteous Spirit that God puts into His converts , and people are required to keep cleansed as to keep peace for Jesus spirit to abide in these believers ..Like in Romans 8: 10-21......``But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you , He that raised up Christ from the dead will also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwells in you ..``......... comes through the Baptism of Holy Spirit , so If people still need to get the Baptism of Holy Spirit , then they need to Repent again and again and get water baptized again to prove to the Lord Jesus of your conviction for salvation to His plan ........... If you tried and tried but still no witness in Christ Spirit , well you should try a different church , and God honor the leader tolerances and it they are stuck in Legalism with no witness of the Baptism of Holy Spirit in the people of your church, then change churches
I find you very hard to understand. I thought I was beginning to understand this post but you lost me in the end. I assume English is not your native language?
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-06-2013, 06:07 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
29,447 posts, read 21,708,672 times
Reputation: 13718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikelee81 View Post
As I study the various covenants to determine the contionality of them, I think it's clear of one concept.. The circumcision of the heart is the prime characteristic of a true child of God. So the question stands, is your heart circumcised? This is a question we all need to ask ourselves.

Romans 2:28-29 let's us know that what matters is not the outward appearance, but what is in the heart what counts. This is why depending upon physical circumcision (a requirement under the law to be in the covenant)(The body of Christ is circumcised physically through Christ as He fulfilled the righteous requirements for us). There are many other passages that tell us this. If any one is in Christ, all things become new and old things have passed away. It's not a "work" but condition of a new heart, one that wants to live and please God. Who's praise is not of men but of God.. Many passages telling us this. The new heart and desire to live after the Spirit produces fruit as all that are saved are being conformed to the image of Christ.

I've been doing some study on who is circumcising the heart. Under the old covenant, there is a clear warning for the Israelites to circumcise their hearts. (Jeremiah 4:4). The consequence for not doing so was clearly the wrath of God. This talks about an active pursuit on their part of circumcising their heart - symbolizing a life foresaking sin and the flesh life actively pursuing God and life after the Spirit.

I've been researching and comparing that of the old covenant with the new. It seems clear to me that circumcision of the heart is still the requirement. I believe under the new covenant God is doing the circumcising. In Deuteronomy 30:6, it states God is the one circumcising the heart. There are many passages regarding the new covenant in which proclaims that He will put His law in our mind and write them on our heart. His promise is that He will be our God and we will be His people. It actually says we "shall" obey His commands as a result of this. The purpose is of course fruit. It's quite clear God is looking for fruit in His people.

What I've been struggling with really is Romans 6. I'd love to find a detailed exposition of the chapter. When I'm saying detailed, I mean a detailed analysis of every word in the Greek. So if anyone can point me to a resource that does that, that would be highly appreciated.

The reason why is it seems that in Romans 6 an individual has the choice to either 1) reckon (by faith) that they are dead to sin being a slave of righteousness leading to everlasting life or 2) not reckoning ourselves dead to sin and self by faith being a slave of sin leading to death. Now some theologians would suggest that the death here is not the second death, but that is bringing their theological presuppositions and interpretation into the text. Not to say they that they are wrong, but I think it's wise to only let the text speak.

I find it interesting that Paul says "thankfully you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine delivered unto you (romans 6). It does seem as if he is presuming obedience when he goes on to discuss his case in romans 7, 8, etc. This is in agreement with the OT in which God declares really that we will obey him. Obedience not being what the covenant's condition is predicated upon to be valid, but the fruit of regeneration in the new birth where the believer can say, "I delight to do thy will Oh God, thy law is written in my heart.

So comments? Can one that is regenerated choose to obey sin and death? According to the book of ephesians, those sealed by the Holy Spirit are "sealed until the day of redemption". Is it presumed that all that are regenerate by the new birth will obey from the heart due to a heart that God has circumcised? I haven't been totally satisfied with the commentaries/expositions I've come across.
Mike, here is a study in progress on the Book of Romans by Dr. Dean of West Houston Bible church. He is past Chapter 6, so you might find it helpful. He doesn't go into EVERY word in the Greek but does go into depth in the study. He covers chapter 6 in nine lessons. Listen to a class or two and see what you think.

DeanBible.org: 2010 - Romans
2010 Romans-065b <<< In the site click here for the audio.
Spirituality, Sanctification, and Life!!! Romans 6:1 (overview). July 12, 2012
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-06-2013, 06:12 PM
 
25,735 posts, read 28,701,931 times
Reputation: 24547
Things like this bug me about Christianity. Jesus never said to stop circumcising, right? A person said it, no matter how inspired that person was believed to be.

I can't even imagine what Christianity would look like today if it were practiced entirely on what Christ said. JMO.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-06-2013, 06:23 PM
 
2,541 posts, read 2,301,055 times
Reputation: 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisWayne View Post
I find you very hard to understand. I thought I was beginning to understand this post but you lost me in the end. I assume English is not your native language?
Perhaps what he is saying is,
2COR 6:17 "Wherefore come out from among them, and be you separate, says the Lord, and touch not unclean thing; and I will receive you." He receives us if we count the cost of the need to let go of the old life and wrong company. As Jesus said. "No one puts new wine into old wine skins."

Salvation is unto a transformed life with transformed people. Not every church takes the message to heart but rather, 2TIM 3:5 "Having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-06-2013, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 9,461,007 times
Reputation: 1856
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
Things like this bug me about Christianity. Jesus never said to stop circumcising, right? A person said it, no matter how inspired that person was believed to be.

I can't even imagine what Christianity would look like today if it were practiced entirely on what Christ said. JMO.
Well, Jesus did speak many times of how the ideas and practices would be fulfilled in the New Covenant, and you should see from the OT quotes cited in the OP that the Hebrews were already acknowledging that the outward sign was no good without the spiritual element.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-06-2013, 06:39 PM
 
367 posts, read 331,464 times
Reputation: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
Things like this bug me about Christianity. Jesus never said to stop circumcising, right? A person said it, no matter how inspired that person was believed to be.

I can't even imagine what Christianity would look like today if it were practiced entirely on what Christ said. JMO.
It would look like Judaism would if you took away everything Moses said and only went by what God spoke directly to everyone. Jesus revealed so much through His Apostles after he ascended into heaven that without it we would not really have Christianity as Jesus intended us to have. Just as if you took everything God gave us through Moses and Abraham. It would be a sad thing to loose so much of what God has for us. I cannot imagine the loss of so much. Thank God He did give us what we have through His chosen men.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-07-2013, 08:46 PM
 
6,822 posts, read 6,049,731 times
Reputation: 3757
Thanks for the good responses.

Mike, I'll check that out. Nate, biblios is a great source and is one of the one's I've been using. I have a couple questions I don't see covered.

So the meat of what I'm trying to get to... Is circumcision of the heart (one thing i do think is clear one must possess to be saved/God's child) according to Greek language (which is far more precise and descriptive than the English language) one that God actively performs on the believer in the new birth or is it contingent upon the believer actively "reckoning" themselves "dead" with Christ living in the resurrection life? Is the action of circumcision of the heart on the Lord's end or on the believer's end.

According to deut 30:6, God is doing the circumcision under the new covenant. This gives the believer a new nature, one desires to do the will of God. God creating a new heart in the believer to get the obedience, trust, and fruit He desires empowering the believer to do this by His Holy Spirit. I'm not sure if a believer could uncircumcise a Heart God had circumcised. This being part of the "seal" and deed of ownership over the believer.

What's amazing is that obedience is a promise God makes to those that enter the new covenant. So many would say obedience is conditional to remaining in the covenant. Amazing however, God says obedience will be the fruit of those that enter into the new covenant as the only condition for entering into the covenant is believing/trusting in Jesus Christ.

How does one describe this apparent paradox and perceived contradiction of free will and predestination? Change the heart while giving the believer the ability by faith in Christ to overcome sin and the flesh by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

It is truly amazing that salvation truly only comes by believing in God in His salvation through Jesus Christ. All of this Greek, Hebrew, exigesis, etc and the message is so simple a child could understand. It's also quite amazing is that what is keeping so many out of the Kingdom is not becoming as a little child to receive God's message of His free gift. Our enemy is our pride and lack of fear of the greatness of God.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2022, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top