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Where in there does it mention the compiled Bible? Where in there does it say infallible? Where in there does it say inerrant? USEFUL does NOT equal any of those things. Inspired by God is NOT dictated by God. They were interpreted by primitive, savage, fallible, superstitious and ignorant men, period.
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Originally Posted by DRob4JC
If the Bible is inspired by God, and God does not lie - then yes it's infallible and inerrant.
Inspired does NOT mean infallibly recorded and presented. If you perfectly infallibly explained something to an Australian bushman (by direct dictation . . . not even just inspiration) . . . how reliably do you think he would record and present that material???? If he then explained it to others and they explained it others using oral transmission . . . how reliable would you expect that final result to be after only a few people. Multiply that process over generations and numbers of people . . . what could you expect the final result to be?
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You can use any adjective you want to describe the authors and translators. If they have the Holy Spirit and Christ in them - they are better than the best man without Christ - and they have access to the thoughts of God.
The ONLY time we EVER had direct access to the thoughts of God was when Jesus walked among us, period . . . no other time. Inspiration is NOT direct access and it is certainly NOT dictation. It is interpretations of visions, etc. using the knowledge (or lack), beliefs and superstitions of the men receiving the inspirations.
So now that I have a general idea of the canonization process, could be it's just me that is missing the understanding in the usage of the words authority and authoritative, and by Who, do we make that determination.
Certainly it can not be determined by man, for man since the dawn of time has had his own agendas and will use whatever 'tool' he can find to justify them.
Check and see what Jesus promised to be our guide "to all truth" and then wonder if is not one of those "agendas" to replace that guide with a book, however "useful" that book may be.
Where in there does it mention the compiled Bible? Where in there does it say infallible? Where in there does it say inerrant? USEFUL does NOT equal any of those things. Inspired by God is NOT dictated by God. They were interpreted by primitive, savage, fallible, superstitious and ignorant men, period.
It is rather odd that your 100% bible believing inerrantist would need clear proof that something is in the bible before he even considers believing it. Yet there is no mention in the bible that there would be a bunch of people ordained of God that would compile a bunch of letters then stating what they have compiled is the word of God, reject it at your peril,and has no problem believing it.
This is not an attack on scripture, but showing the hypocrisy of the inerrantist. When we see Jesus we don't have to wonder what truth is, we're looking at it, unless of cause we have a veil remaining over our minds.
Inspired does NOT mean infallibly recorded and presented.
It does when the Holy Spirit so superintended the process of transmitting God's complete and coherent message to man to the human writers of Scripture that they were able to record that message using their own vocabulary and frame of reference, free from human error.
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If you perfectly infallibly explained something to an Australian bushman (by direct dictation . . . not even just inspiration) . . . how reliably do you think he would record and present that material???? If he then explained it to others and they explained it others using oral transmission . . . how reliable would you expect that final result to be after only a few people. Multiply that process over generations and numbers of people . . . what could you expect the final result to be?The ONLY time we EVER had direct access to the thoughts of God was when Jesus walked among us, period . . . no other time.
The inerrancy of the Bible refers only to the original autographs. Not to the manuscript copies.
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Inspiration is NOT direct access and it is certainly NOT dictation. It is interpretations of visions, etc. using the knowledge (or lack), beliefs and superstitions of the men receiving the inspirations.
While there are certainly parts of Scripture which were dictated such as Revelation chapters two and three, and those places in the Old Testament where a prophet said, 'The Word of the Lord came to me saying...', the process of transmission for the most part was not dictation, but nevertheless did involve the outbreathing of Scripture by the Holy Spirit to the human writers of Scripture who again wrote using their own vocabulary and frame of reference to record exactly what God wanted to convey to them.
The writers of Scripture were carried along by the Holy Spirit as they wrote.
2 Peter 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21] for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
And that's regardless of your incessant protests to the contrary.
The writers of Scripture were carried along by the Holy Spirit as they wrote.
2 Peter 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21] for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
And that's regardless of your incessant protests to the contrary.
Mike, the reference is to those who prophesied of Jesus. Why do you extend it to "writers of scripture?" Or are you saying "some writers of scripture, specifically prophets of the Christ?"
Mike, the reference is to those who prophesied of Jesus. Why do you extend it to "writers of scripture?" Or are you saying "some writers of scripture, specifically prophets of the Christ?"
The writers of the Old Testament, or at least of many of the Old Testament books were prophets. It is not possible to know who the authors of some of the Old Testament books were, but they wrote under divine inspiration meaning that they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
The Torah (the first five books of the Old Testament) were written by Moses. Moses was a prophet.
Numbers 12:2 and they said, ''Has the Lord spoken only through Moses?
In the eulogy at Moses' death, Joshua wrote the following.
Deuteronomy 34:10 Since that time no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face.
Isaiah wrote the Book of Isaiah, He was a prophet.
Ezekiel wrote the Book of Ezekiel. He was a prophet-priest.
Daniel was a prophet. He wrote the Book of Daniel.
Hosea was a prophet. He wrote the Book of Hosea.
And so on...
No one knows for sure who wrote the Book of Ruth, but Jewish tradition attributes it to the prophet Samuel.
The so called ''400 silent years'' between the closing of the Old Testament and the birth of Christ are called that not because there was nothing going on, but because God was not speaking to Israel through prophets during that time and no new Scripture was being written. The apocryphal books which were written during those so called ''400 silent years'' were never considered canonical by the Jews and were never a part of the Hebrew Scriptures. They were included in the Septuagint translation, but not in the Hebrew Bible.
The writers of the Old Testament, or at least of many of the Old Testament books were prophets. It is not possible to know who the authors of some of the Old Testament books were, but they wrote under divine inspiration meaning that they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Once again, the reference is to prophecies of the Christ. Obviously prophecies that were carried out are also of the same nature, but it is not speaking of anything here but prophecies, not history and not laws and certainly not instructions that contradict the nature of God as revealed by Jesus.
If there is no divine guidance - there's nothing - because God initiates all contact with human beings.
If God does not divinely guide anyone - why should anyone listen to you... or me? You can create your own gospel and your own doctrine.
Interesting, but what makes God's contact with the writers of the 66 canonized books of the Old and New Testament somehow better than any other contact from God? Why are we limited to 66 bonafide works from God?
When it comes to the folks who actually decided what to put in and what to throw out, I think you have a very mixed bag of motivations. I think that most of them simply wanted to eliminate spurious writings. Some certainly had political motivations driving them. And to this very day, there is no absolute consensus in Christianity on Biblical canon.
There are three things that most of Christianity seems to blindly accept and I'm absolutely baffled by all three:
1.) The formalized Trinity (so we're talking Athanasian Creed level of nitpicky definition of the Trinity) is the only acceptable way to understand the nature of God.
2.) At some point in time, God simply stopped telling humankind anything worth writing down. Most even go so far as implying that God formally announced this phenomenon at some point.
3.) All truth (or all truth worth knowing) is somehow contained in the Bible.
We could also talk about the absoluteness of a young earth, ex nihilo creation and other things, but most of those beliefs tend to adapt and change over time.
I think the compilers of the Bible were a tad overzealous. I think they threw out writings like Shepherd of Hermas and the Epistle of Barnabas mostly because there was just a tiny thread of doubt over the validity of these writings. Hebrews and the Revelation of John very nearly met the same fate of being relegated to "questionable" or "spurious" status for the same reason. I don't think we should blindly accept that they got everything right.
Last edited by godofthunder9010; 07-11-2013 at 06:41 PM..
Once again, the reference is to prophecies of the Christ. Obviously prophecies that were carried out are also of the same nature, but it is not speaking of anything here but prophecies, not history and not laws and certainly not instructions that contradict the nature of God as revealed by Jesus.
That is simply a lame excuse to justify not accepting the Bible as the Word of God. While 1 Peter 1:20-21 refers to prophecies, all Scripture is God-breathed. Breathed out by God to the human writers of Scripture.
2 Tim. 3:16All Scripture is God breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
You mentioned the Law. Jesus called the Mosaic Law the Word of God.
Mark 7:9 He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10] "For Moses said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'; and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH'; 11] but you say, 'If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God), 12] you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13] thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."
It is stated in both Gal. 3:19 and Hebrews 2:2 that the Law was given to Israel through the mediation of angels. The Mosaic Law, having been given by God through angels, does not therefore contradict the nature of God.
You mentionied history. Jesus regarded that which is recorded in Genesis as history.
Going back to the prophecies about Christ. Since you seem to agree that the prophecies about Christ are accurate, do you then agree with Zechariah 14:3-4 that Jesus Christ, because that it who it refers to (compare it with Revelation 19:11-21), will go forth and fight against the nations and that many will be killed by the word of His mouth (again, refer to Revelation 19)? Or will you deny it because you think it contradicts the nature of God as revealed by Christ?
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