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Hi, I know there's a lot of differing views on the rapture. I used to be PostTrib, believed there were good arguments for Mid, but in all my studies have chosen to believe in Pre. I am not looking to create a debate thread. I put together a personal study and would like to understand if any of it may be wrong or misinterpreted in places, or perhaps it will show info some haven't seen before. I do believe in this strongly, but like in every other doctrinal area in my life, I have learned to understand I will never know the complete truth, and wisdom is knowing this. It's constant learning, and jeez have I learned a lot and had to change my mind on what I previously understood.
Thanks in advance.
I'll split this into different sections so it will (hopefully) be easier to read:
The Ancient Jewish Wedding Tradition and the similarities to Jesus' courtship with the Church
Old Testament stories eluding to the Gentile Bride and the Israelite King/Savior
The Ancient Jewish Wedding Tradition and the similarities to Jesus' courtship with the Church
I've spoken about this before, so you may already have seen it. But here is a refresher:
In the Ancient Jewish Wedding Tradition, a man and woman would decide they wanted to marry. The man would put a contract together, along with gifts, to present to her and her family over a glass of wine. If the woman accepted the contract and gifts she would take a sip. Their contract was then considered legal and they were officially engaged. In the Jewish tradition engagement is pretty much equal with marriage and breaking it off meant divorce. After this meeting the man went away to build a dwelling for him and his bride onto the side of his Father's house. This usually took around 1 to 2 years, sometimes rarely 3. Only when the father inspected the dwelling and concluded it was appropriate did he give the go-ahead for the man to go get his wife. In keeping with tradition, during these years the bride was to be getting herself ready and always be watching for her groom, because his return for her was secret and unknown. Usually at the midnight hour was a friend of the groom sent ahead shouting that his return was near to wake her and her bridesmaids up and get them ready to go out and meet him. Then trumpets sounded as a symbol of gathering and the groom came to take his bride away to his dwelling place. They would consummate the marriage and stay hidden away for 7 days. They would then come out to family and friends and would be received as King and Queen.
This remarkably coincides with the story of Jesus and his Church. At the Last Supper we saw Jesus offer bread and wine. The bread represented his body (his gift of Salvation) and the drinking of the wine (the covenant of marriage). When he died and rose again he went to Heaven to build a dwelling place for us (the New Jerusalem), so that he could bring us to where he is (John 14:3). When the Father tells Jesus to get his Bride he returns for us, if this continues to fit the Wedding Tradition, we should be ready for his return but will not know the exact timing. He will literally be like a thief in the night (Matthew 24:42, 44). He will take us away for a period of 7 days. The Tribulation is called Daniel's 70th week. A week is 7 days. Fits! After the hiding away we will be presented to the world and return with him at the Second Coming as Bride and Groom, Queen and King of the Millennium reign.
Old Testament stories eluding to the Gentile Bride and the Israelite King/Savior
#1 Judgment in Sodom could not occur until Lot was removed (Genesis 19:22). Remarkably, "while Lot lingered, the angels took hold of his hand, his wife's hand, and the hands of his two daughters, the Lord being merciful to him, and they brought him out and set him outside the city... Hurry, escape there. For I cannot do anything until you arrive there" (v. 16, 22)
#2 Joseph (a type of Christ in many ways) takes a Gentile bride before the 7 year famine begins (Genesis 41:45). After he received his Gentile bride, his brethren (the Israelites) and the entire world suffered a seven year famine (Genesis 41:54-57). During this time of famine many came to Joseph for food. Similarly, after Jesus receives His Bride, his brethren the Jews (and many in the world), will turn to the Lord Jesus for relief (Revelation 7).
#3 In Joshua chapter 2, Rahab trusts the Lord and befriends the Jewish spies. By faith Rahab puts a scarlet thread in her window (a symbol of Christ's blood) and she and her family are "brought out" of Jericho before the city is burned with fire (Joshua 6). Rahab is a prostitute (Hebrews 11:31) and a Gentile woman (Joshua 2), yet she is found in the Messianic line (Matthew 1:5). Rahab is therefore a beautiful picture of the Church as the bride of Christ. Though formerly a prostitute, Rahab, by faith, was made clean and delivered from God's wrath. Amazingly, in this account, we again see seven days of warning preceding judgment (God's gracious delay to encourage repentance). The armies of God marched around the city six days, and on the seventh day they marched around the city seven times, and then the city was finally destroyed (Joshua 6).
#4 In 1 Samuel 25:39-42 Abigail is informed that King David (foreshadowing King Jesus) wants to take her as his bride. She immediately responds and "rose in haste" with five of her damsels to "depart" and go to David for the marriage. Compare this with Matthew 25:1-13 where five wise virgins who truly had oil went forth to meet the Bridegroom (Jesus) away from their dwelling place (earth). Interestingly, the name Abigail means "the Father's joy."
#5 The Song of Solomon is an amazing picture of Christ and His Church (Ephesians 5:29-32). In the Song of Solomon 2:8-13, the Bride (the Church) hears the voice of her Beloved (Jesus) coming for her. Then, in verses 10 and 13, the Bridegroom speaks and calls His bride to "Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away." This is a beautiful foreshadow of our marriage and honeymoon in heaven!
#6 Isaiah 26:20-21 also gives us a possible picture of the Rapture preceding the Tribulation: "Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, until the indignation is past. For behold, the LORD comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; the earth will also disclose her blood, and will no more cover her slain." Apparently, believers are tucked away in Heaven before the Tribulation falls on the earth.
#7 In Daniel chapter 3, King Nebuchadnezzar (a type of the Antichrist, Revelation 13) demands that the entire population bow down to his image. Daniel's three friends (Jews) are preserved through the fiery tribulation, but Daniel is nowhere to be found. Daniel was "ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief administrator over all the wise men of Babylon" (Daniel 2:48), yet he is missing from the account. Why? Daniel was apparently away. Might he be a type of the Church? Three times Daniel is called "greatly beloved" (Daniel 9:23; 10:11; 10:19).
#8 In Zephaniah 2:2-3 it reads: "Before the decree is issued, or the day passes like chaff, before the Lord's fierce anger comes upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger comes upon you! Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth, who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden in the day of the Lord's anger." According to this passage, believers will be hidden in the day of the Lord's anger (Isaiah 26:20-21, Zephaniah 1:7, Zephaniah 2:3.)
#9 Malachi chapter 3 deals with the Day of the Lord. Interestingly, Malachi 3:18 implies two comings of the Messiah: "Then shall ye (believers) return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not (the sheep and goats separation)." It becomes clear when we read the entire context of Malachi 3 that believers shall return to the earth. In order to return and discern, believers must have first been caught away to Heaven.
The First Resurrection includes all those who died in Christ. This does not mean only one resurrection. Jesus, the OT saints who came out of their tombs, then those who died in the Age of Grace at the Rapture, and then those Tribulation Saints who will come alive at the end of the 7 years and gather together on the Earth with the Elect (Israelites) are all part of the First Resurrection. The Second Resurrection takes place at the end of the Millennial Reign of Christ and only happens once.
Many passages of the Elect get confused with passages of the Church. When the Elect are gathered at the end of the Tribulation, there is no mention of them returning with Christ into the air. However, the Church meet with the Lord in the air and return with him from the clouds.
In Revelation 4 we see the 24 elders with crowns on their heads which they lay at the feet of Christ. These 24 elders most likely represent the Church. Never is an angel or creature of heaven said to receive crowns, but humanity does. The 24 could perhaps represent the 12 apostles and 12 patriarchs? 12 means perfect government Biblically. In any case, if these elders are a picture of the Church with their crowns this means the Bema Seat has already taken place where we receive our rewards and give an account of our lives to Christ. This happens after the Rapture.
This is extra-Biblical of course, but it bodes well with the real world. We know Satan lies and attacks. I've noticed in the last few years movies depicting alien abductions has sky-rocketed. Two movies came out this June that both allude to the Rapture and the consequent Tribulation. Rapture-Palooza shows what happens to the world after the Rapture takes place. It is a comedy and makes incredible fun at the doctrine and even goes as far as to shoot Jesus down out of the sky at his Second Coming to kill him. This is the End shows celebrities going through the Tribulation as themselves. It shows people being sucked into heaven. The movie Skyline that came out a few years ago even goes as far as to contradict direct scripture. The catch phrase for the movie is "Don't look up" (or you will be taken by aliens). It's in direct opposition to the verse Luke 21:28: "When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near." I honestly feel an alien abduction scenario will be used as an excuse for the multitudes who disappear. Congress even held a citizen-requested Disclosure hearing in June. I feel we are so close.
The recent heated attack against the Pre-trib in the last few years makes me wonder if there is something spiritual taking place behind the scenes. This shouldn't be a salvation issue, yet I have come under attack for it, being called a heretic and lost. :/
There are a lot of New Age channelers saying they were told Earth will be cleansed of people including the mother of Theosophy, Helena Blavatsky. They will disappear because of their bigoted beliefs so the evolution of humanity can continue.
There are also a few untruths that are spread about the history of the Pre-Trib Rapture theory. One is that it is a relatively new doctrine having it's origins with the vision of a young girl in the 1830s. Instead, the truth is the doctrine (I believe) was revealed by Paul in the first century. Many theologians down through history have written on the subject as well: The Early Church fathers' such as Barnabas (ca.100-105), Papias (ca. 60-130), Justin Martyr (110-195), Irenaeus (120-202), Tertullian (145-220), Hippolytus (ca. 185-236), Cyprian (200-250), and Lactantius (260-330) wrote on the imminent return of Jesus Christ, the central argument for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture view. Joseph Mede (1586-1638), Increase Mather (1639-1723), Peter Jurieu (1687), Philip Doddridge (1738), John Gill (1748), James Macknight (1763), Thomas Scott (1792) and Morgan Edwards (1722-1795) all wrote concerning the Rapture occurring separate from the Second Coming. Even in the more modern church, those like William Witherby (1818) were precursors to John Darby in support of the view.
We are repeatedly told throughout scripture that if we follow Christ we shall see tribulation. What we are comforted with is that we were promised we would not see God's Great Tribulation which concerns his Wrath.
Revelation 13:7 says God gives Satan the power to make war with the (Tribulation) saints and to conquer them. There is no protection here. They will be martyred for their faith. This contradicts verses that says we should be comforted with these words, that Jesus will come for us that we may escape. 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 1 Thessalonians 4:18, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Titus 2:13, Revelation 3:10, Romans 5:9, Ephesians 5:6, Colossians 3:4
However you see in Jeremiah 30:7 that the Great Tribulation is the time of Jacob's Trouble. It is meant for the Jews. They who survive through it will be the flesh and blood humans who will repopulate the Earth during the Millennium. If they were to be raptured at Christ's return, there would be no one capable of producing offspring in that Age.
There are 114 references to trumpets in the Bible. Why are the angelic 7 trumpets the ones assumed for the rapture? The trumpet call for the Rapture is the Trump of God. The 7th trumpet in Revelation is the trumpet of an angel.
There are trumpet calls for gathering, war, celebration, watching etc. Again, these two scenarios differ. One is a gathering call, and the other a judgement blast.
Rapture is not a correct doctrine the way you say it. The day you rapture is the day you die, that is when your spirit separates from your body. When that happens you are already in a different plane, no more the material plane. Christ's rapture took place under the cover of the clouds. Rapture is not what you behold with your naked eyes. It is not possible to remain in the air with the Lord. Has it occurred to you that the air is the earth? Remember he taught us in the beatitudes that blessed are the poor in spirit and the meek for they shall inherit the earth. He cannot say that in one breadth and in another take you to the sky. When you see such contrast in literal meaning challenge yourself to a deeper spiritual meaning, because the man never contradicted himself.
The first Adam was entrusted with rulers of all of God's creation. No angel can rule, only man can rule and although he was cast out of the garden, his position as a ruler was never taken away from him. Therefore, the one who must rule must always come as man. As man he must have Spirit, flesh and blood. God has made only one channel for all spirits to incarnate or regenerate into the world- the womb of a woman. That is what John tried to describe... "the spirit was made flesh". That same Spirit became flesh 2013years ago in Bethlehem. The same Bible had accurately predicted it in Isaiah7:14.
Can't that process repeat itself. Rev 12 : 5, and Isaiah 9;6, answered that adequately. Anyone that does not believe in this concept of the Spirit being made flesh still has a long way to go in his Christianity. If Christ was to come from the sky, then he will no longer be man, he will be an angel and the scripture tells us that man must rule, even to the chagrin of angels who asked in Hebrews 2, "what is man that thou are mindful of him..". God is not a God of confusion. If he wanted him to come as an angel, the three angels would not have told the disciples not to bother with looking to the sky. No one will drop or suspend in the sky. What you will see in the sky is signs- a sign of the son of man.The three angels said the man going up will come back in a like manner as you have seen him go up. What manner did he go up? He went up as man, and as man will he come.
Another concept that is misunderstood is the millennia reign. That reign with the righteous dead occurs in the heavenly plane. Read that scripture well. In any case, a man has shed his blood, for all of us and has been given all powers to rule. Why do you think his rulership on earth is interrupted? He will reign forever on earth. Dan 7: 12-13. Christ never told us of a millennia reign on earth. That concept contradicts even our Lords prayer which we say daily. Isn't it time for that prayer to be actualized?
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One more thing I want you to reflect on is why till today the Jews say the Christ have not yet come? They had all the Holy books, practised the commandments, yet they could not and have not decipher that he had come. Only three wise men were given the revelation and they sold all they had to come and worship him. They knew he was God on earth, so they all came to worship him. His own people were expecting Elijah to crashland from the clouds before the Christ would come. Of course Elijah spirit was already made flesh as John, but they could not decipher it. Christ explained that Elijah had already come.
In the same vein, folks will be looking up for Christ forgetting the Bible passages of Rev 12:5, Isaiah 9;6,
Paul wrote that not all of us would die. Hence the rapture is while many of us will still be alive. He specifically said our bodies would change, but only after those who are dead are raised (have you not read this?) He told the Corinthians not to worry after someone had sent a false letter to them saying what you had just said: that the rapture had already happened. They were terrified and he wrote to comfort them that they would not experience the tribulation.
"It is not possible to remain in the air with the Lord."
Jesus said he would take us to where he is: the New Jerusalem, Mount Zion. Right now, that is in the "air". If that means another dimension, or hovering somewhere in the universe, we don't know. But it's definitely not on earth at this time.
I don't know what the spirit becoming flesh has to do with the rapture. Christ said flesh and bones do not enter into where he is. So...confused on your point?
No offense, but your post has little to nothing to do with the Biblical argument I gave for a pretribulation rapture. You seem to hold to doctrines that I do not see having any Biblical literalism. It's all allegorical where it shouldn't be, ie the "spiritual" Millennial reign. The scriptures speak of a literal 1,000 year reign. And no it will not be forever. After the 1,000 years the scriptures say all authority and ownership goes back to God...doesn't stay with Christ forever. People who hold to the spiritual reign say that Christ is already reigning. I'm sorry but it says it will be a time with no war, peace, a perfect economy, and both flesh and bones and spiritual people will live side by side. I see none of that going on right now.
The Jews say Christ has not come, not in the Second Coming sense, but in the sense that Christ has not come at all yet. They don't believe Jesus is the Messiah so they're still waiting for the First Coming. That's why many of them will fall for the Antichrist. That is why God still needs the Tribulation to shake the remnant up and save them. The scriptures say God has blinded their hearts until the time of the gentiles is over (beginning of the Tribulation and the final 70th week). Daniel chapter 9 shows that only 69 weeks of judgement has taken place for the Jews. They stopped when Jesus died, rose, and ascended to Heaven. There is one more week left, and yes, it's still only meant for the Jews.
Psalm 90:4A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.
Millennialism is once again showing itself by denying the church's hope of Christ's only return to judgement and transport it into the stratosphere of their own esoteric speculations. And because of this attempt, people are foolishly reading something into what Jesus specifically does not say.
God stated of such false teachers that when they come, they are: scoffing and following their own evil desires ' (2 Peter 3:3).
Jesus doesn't have a disclaimer to "My kingdom is not of this world"
There is no 1000 year physical reign on earth of Jesus
The gathering "rapture" of believers will happen at the "loud trumpet call"
There is no double "second comings" of Jesus with a 1000 year gap for a second chance
Psalm 90:4A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.
Millennialism is once again showing itself by denying the church's hope of Christ's only return to judgement and transport it into the stratosphere of their own esoteric speculations. And because of this attempt, people are foolishly reading something into what Jesus specifically does not say.
God stated of such false teachers that when they come, they are: scoffing and following their own evil desires ' (2 Peter 3:3).
Jesus doesn't have a disclaimer to "My kingdom is not of this world"
There is no 1000 year physical reign on earth of Jesus
The gathering "rapture" of believers will happen at the "loud trumpet call"
There is no double "second comings" of Jesus with a 1000 year gap for a second chance
So he was speaking only figuratively when he said he'd reign for 1000 years?
And I'm not sure what you mean by a "second chance". The idea of a millenium doesn't suggest a second chance.
Great stuff here-I enjoy learning more. It's funny(not ha ha) that since I was once Catholic we weren't raised to believe anything but Heaven and Hell and Purgatory. I walked away from the Catholic Church for way too many reasons to mention here. I now believe in the Rapture of the Church and from what I'm learned I believe in a pretribulation rapture. I'm nowhere as near as smart as any of you posting here, yet I'd like to believe that God in his mercy and love will not allow the body of Christ to remain for a tribulation period. Please enlighten me as I'd love to know more and learn what the truth is.
You forget Paul thought he was living in the last days and that he was going to be raptured.
Quote:
1 Corinthians 15:51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!
Quote:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
I suspect his last words just before the axman's blade landed on his neck was, "Wa hoppon?"
Great stuff here-I enjoy learning more. It's funny(not ha ha) that since I was once Catholic we weren't raised to believe anything but Heaven and Hell and Purgatory. I walked away from the Catholic Church for way too many reasons to mention here. I now believe in the Rapture of the Church and from what I'm learned I believe in a pretribulation rapture. I'm nowhere as near as smart as any of you posting here, yet I'd like to believe that God in his mercy and love will not allow the body of Christ to remain for a tribulation period. Please enlighten me as I'd love to know more and learn what the truth is.
I'm glad you have this joy in you.
Revelation 4:1 is a beautiful picture of the Rapture. It's right after Jesus speaks to the seven churches, only two of which he was happy with. Anyway, it speaks of seeing a door in heaven opening up, a voice like a trumpet saying "Come up here". After this we see people already in heaven with crowns (Bema seat judgement of the Saints) clothed in white (representative of Jesus's purity in the Saints). We're already there! And this is two chapters before the Trib starts.
Revelation3:10 "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth."
You forget Paul thought he was living in the last days and that he was going to be raptured.
I suspect his last words just before the axman's blade landed on his neck was, "Wa hoppon?"
Paul believed in the imminent return of Christ, which is what the scriptures teach. If he didn't, he would have taught the rapture was after the Tribulation and probably wouldn't have been happy. There is no joy in knowing you must go through the worst time in human history, and having a good chance of being tortured or killed.
What Paul didn't understand was the relation of the creation days to the Ages. God created the earth in six days and on the seventh he rested. A day is like a thousand years to the Lord (2 Peter 3:8). We are coming up on completing 6,000 years since the earth was created, about to enter into that 7,000th. The seventh day. The day of rest, of perfection, of peace. It isn't allegorical, it isn't spiritual. The earth has been a literal hell, it will be a literal perfect reign when Christ comes back with his co-rulers, the Saints (Bride).
Psalm 90:4
A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.
2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
And I'm not sure what you mean by a "second chance". The idea of a millenium doesn't suggest a second chance.
Absolutely it does .... because Millennialists are having two second comings of Christ. That then is giving those who missed it the first time around a second chance to get it right before the second time.
Which is denying the church's hope of Christ's only return to judgment and transport it into the stratosphere of their own esoteric speculations.
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