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Over and over and over, Jesus states that His followers will be known by what they DO.
Instead of a follower, Mike, perhaps you are only a fan, ...
The biblical accounts of Jesus requiring people to define the relationship and honestly determine if they were true followers give us some telltale symptoms of being a fan. As we study these D.T.r. encounters with Jesus they will act as a mirror so we can have a more honest assessment of ourselves. Fans often confuse their admiration for devotion. They mistake their knowledge of Jesus for intimacy with Jesus. Fans assume their good intentions make up for their apathetic faith.
(parts above excerpted from "Not a Fan" by Kyle Idelman, pastor of the Southeast Christian Church in Louisville, Ky.)
The life of a real Christian involves COMMITMENT. The life of faith alone allows for the George Sodinis to claim they follow Jesus while committing horrific acts. The life of the follower is one of finding each day another way to help someone around them in some way, big or small.
So choose, people, whether you wish to be a fan--or whether you wish to be on the team with Jesus.
Good analogy which begs a question - why can't non-beleivers act in the same manner as a believer? Can they not love, sacrifice, do good, act altruistically, etc.
Good analogy which begs a question - why can't non-beleivers act in the same manner as a believer? Can they not love, sacrifice, do good, act altruistically, etc.
Yes they can--and I have more respect for them than those who believe faith saves but have no concern with proper living by those who claim to be Christians.
And Jesus told an interesting story about an UNBELIEVER (at least in the minds of Jews), a Samaritan who stopped by the road to help a man injured in a robbery. He seemed to have a lot more regard for the Samaritan than He did for those spouting of religious doctrine who passed the injured man by.
Once again--a doctrine that can justify people to commit evil is NOT a doctrine of God. It is a doctrine of men who wish to avoid their responsibility for living the way Jesus illustrated with His life.
Here again, is the example:
Over and over and over, Jesus states that His followers will be known by what they DO.
1. "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if we have love one to another" (Jn.13:35 Para.).
2. "If you love me, keep my commandments" (Jn.14:15 Para.).
3."He that says, I know him, and does not keep his commandments, is a liar, and has no truth in him" (1.Jn.2:4 Para.).
4."This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God, and keeping his commandments. This is love for God: that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not burdensome" (1.Jn.5:2-3 Para.).
5. You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit" (Matt.7:15-17 Para.).
Instead of a follower, Mike, perhaps you are only a fan, because fans can be enthusiastic, they can be excited, they can be admirers, but they never have to get in the trenches and do the work of real followers. The fan is the guy who goes to the football game with no shirt and a painted chest. He sits in the stands and cheers for his team. He’s got a signed jersey hanging on his wall at home and multiple bumper stickers on the back of his car. But he’s never in the game. He never breaks a sweat or takes a hard hit in the open field. He knows all about the players and can rattle off their latest stats, but he doesn’t know the players. He yells and cheers, but nothing is really required of him. There is no sacrifice he has to make.
So Fan or Follower? The problem with asking that question of yourself is this: it’s almost impossible to be objective. After all, if you say, “I’m a follower,” what makes you so sure? What are the measurements that you use to define your relationship with Christ? Most would determine the answer to this question by using a highly subjective method of measurement. Many fans mistakenly identify themselves as followers by using cultural comparisons. They look at the commitment level of others around them and feel like their relationship with Jesus is solid. Essentially they grade their relationship with Jesus on the curve, and as long as they are more spiritual than the next guy, they figure everything is fine.
The biblical accounts of Jesus requiring people to define the relationship and honestly determine if they were true followers give us some telltale symptoms of being a fan. As we study these D.T.r. encounters with Jesus they will act as a mirror so we can have a more honest assessment of ourselves. Fans often confuse their admiration for devotion. They mistake their knowledge of Jesus for intimacy with Jesus. Fans assume their good intentions make up for their apathetic faith.
(parts above excerpted from "Not a Fan" by Kyle Idelman, pastor of the Southeast Christian Church in Louisville, Ky.)
The life of a real Christian involves COMMITMENT. The life of faith alone allows for the George Sodinis to claim they follow Jesus while committing horrific acts. The life of the follower is one of finding each day another way to help someone around them in some way, big or small.
So choose, people, whether you wish to be a fan--or whether you wish to be on the team with Jesus.
Once again, the Bible clearly states that those who have died with Christ will live with Christ. It is a strong affirmation of the believer's eternal security.
And once again, being a believer in Christ does not automatically make one a disciple of Christ. While every true disciple of Christ is a believer, not every true Christian is a disciple.
And again, anyone who has received Christ as Savior is a true Christian. He has been delivered from the penalty of sin and has an eternal relationship with Christ. He may be a disobedient Christian, but he is a Christian.
You do not seem able to communicate with those with whom you disagree without getting personal and resorting to Ad hominem attacks and questioning the faith of those who understand that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ alone. No works involved.
01-26-2014, 03:54 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
Yes they can--and I have more respect for them than those who believe faith saves but have no concern with proper living by those who claim to be Christians.
And Jesus told an interesting story about an UNBELIEVER (at least in the minds of Jews), a Samaritan who stopped by the road to help a man injured in a robbery. He seemed to have a lot more regard for the Samaritan than He did for those spouting of religious doctrine who passed the injured man by.
I think of this and ponder.
Yes, which gets back to my either points about how does one know if you can't tell by just looking at what one does? And if you can only tell by what one does and says yet attribute, as some have on here, that those who once did and said but no longer say never really had a 'true' belief then no one really can know until you actually awake in the presence of God --- and breath a sigh relief. Otherwise it is all convincing oneself of the reality of one's faith through one own subjective sense.
Yes they can--and I have more respect for them than those who believe faith saves but have no concern with proper living by those who claim to be Christians.
And Jesus told an interesting story about an UNBELIEVER (at least in the minds of Jews), a Samaritan who stopped by the road to help a man injured in a robbery. He seemed to have a lot more regard for the Samaritan than He did for those spouting of religious doctrine who passed the injured man by.
I think of this and ponder.
You also have no respect for what the Bible teaches.
And you reek of self righteous judgmentalism. You equate being grace oriented with being spiritually lazy and you look down your nose at the grace oriented believer.
Whether you like it or not . . . and you don't, the Bible teaches that the believer is eternally secure and can do nothing to lose his salvation whether he has works or not.
01-26-2014, 04:02 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Whether you like it or not . . . and you don't, the Bible teaches that the believer is eternally secure and can do nothing to lose his salvation whether he has works or not.
You make it sound as if 'believer' is active - that is - that the opposite of believers are eternally secure is that non-believers are not.
Yet, you say that this is not true. You say that a non-believer can be eternally secure as long as he was once a believer.
Add this to your above quote and a non-believer without works can be eternally secure.
Add this to some who say that those who once believed and no longer believed never really believed and if believers and non-believers can act the same - how can one actually know anything about eternal security?
You make it sound as if 'believer' is active - that is - that the opposite of believers are eternally secure is that non-believers are not.
Yet, you say that this is not true. You say that a non-believer can be eternally secure as long as he was once a believer.
Add this to your above quote and a non-believer without works can be eternally secure.
The believer in Jesus Christ, having been eternally saved, is eternally secure. The person who has never at any time received Christ as Savior remains under condemnation.
Having once been saved, a person remains saved even though he turns around and renounces Christ and no longer believes.
Wardendresden could you provide your response to my last post?
How do you endure trials with Faith that all things are working together for good if you do not rest in your position through Christ as being Saved by His blood?
The Arminian Doctrine, which is what the video was professing was true doctrine, leads to a focus on self as opposed to God and others... One may try to love God and one another, but they are not loving the way 1 Corinthians 13 describes in "seeking not its own". Everything is done ultimately for self. The works might be there but the motive is not selfless. Correct doctrine produces correct works with the correct motive.
The born-again Christian that has not rested in their position of being forgiven through Faith in the blood of Jesus Christ and God's works through Him in the resurrection have no peace. They are constantly doubting their position in Christ. Correct doctrine produces boldness in Faith through the blood of Christ. They are constantly concerned about losing their judicial position of being forgiven in Christ. The fruit that I have seen from this is not what is described as the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance. What I generally witness is a feigned love, a false peace, restlessness, sharp, trying to be good, lacking faith, spiritually proud and judgmental, and quick tempered "fruit"/thorns. I see the flesh trying to live the Christian life.
Someone I know VERY good that believed in Arminianism was not too long ago seeking HUMANIST Counseling for ANGER MANAGEMENT.
Folks THAT is not the Peace of God that He gives in forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ. The new nature in Christ WILL DESIRE to obey His will.. It will not be perfect obedience, but in time God will get some fruit out of what He started, even if like Jacob He has to make us a cripple to do it.
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Who is the "we" in the last passage.. It is the same people John is talking about in his epistle.
1 John 2:18-21 KJV
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
The people that are identified as those that persevere unto the end are those that have the "anointing" of the Holy Spirit. They persevere because they are preserved by Christ our High Priest and Mediator before God. They are FORGIVEN and justified by His Holy Spirit imputing Christ's righteousness to their account. They abide in Christ as the Holy Spirit is abiding in them. They are resting in God's perfect righteousness in Christ and not looking to approach God with their own filthy rag righteousness.
They have PEACE because of they KNOW they are forgiven and by faith KNOW that ALL THINGS are working together for good because they love God and are called according to His purpose.. A love that He put in their hearts by His Grace..
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
The covenant is through the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. Through His merit not ours.
Wardendresden could you provide your response to my last post?
How do you endure trials with Faith that all things are working together for good if you do not rest in your position through Christ as being Saved by His blood?
The born-again Christian that has not rested in their position of being forgiven through Faith in the blood of Jesus Christ and God's works through Him in the resurrection have no peace.They are constantly doubting their position in Christ. Correct doctrine produces boldness in Faith through the blood of Christ. They are constantly concerned about losing their judicial position of being forgiven in Christ. The fruit that I have seen from this is not what is described as the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance. What I generally witness is a feigned love, a false peace, restlessness, sharp, trying to be good, lacking faith, spiritually proud and judgmental, and quick tempered "fruit"/thorns. I see the flesh trying to live the Christian life.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
Unfortunately the bolded part of your message above does not mesh with the teaching of Jesus regarding the ten virgins ---
Quote:
"Then the Kingdom of Heaven will be like ten virgins, who took their lamps, and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. Those who were foolish, when they took their lamps, took no oil with them, but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. Now while the bridegroom delayed, they all slumbered and slept. But at midnight there was a cry, "Behold! The bridegroom is coming! Come out to meet him!" Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. The foolish said to the wise, "Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out." But the wise answered, saying, "What if there isn't enough for us and you? You go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves." While they went away to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins also came, saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us." But he answered, "Most certainly I tell you, I don't know you."
Now ALL the virgins were called, but only five of them TOOK ANY ACTION. The others just had faith alone--they knew the bridegroom was coming--they just didn't expect him to expect them to have done anything in preparation for his arrival. The bridegroom said he didn't know them.
If one claims to know Christ, then they also know what is expected of them. They know they have a Master who is not coming home to find them sitting on their duffs.
Is faith necessary---yes! Are works necessary--yes! And the glue between the two is the grace of God. Now there are plenty of people who want to keep spitting Paul out of their mouths while ignoring the message of DOING which Jesus talks about over and over and over.
So like it or not, evil sometimes arises out of a belief in OSAS. How do you justify that to the lost? Even the profane know that it is the ACTIONS of Christians that point to God. Bill Maher is an agnostic, and even he knows how to identify a Christian---
You may not appreciate his vulgarity, but he points out very clearly how talking about Christianity and doing something OPPOSED to Christianity is NOT Christian, regardless of how much "faith" one has.
Maybe Mike is right and I have no respect for the bible according to him. At the same time I see nothing in his postings that show any respect for the teaching of Jesus.
.Having once been saved, a person remains saved even though he turns around and renounces Christ and no longer believes.
And that is the same lie Satan told Eve. Disobey and you won't die.
It gets repeated in various ways a lot, and some like Eve are deceived, and some Like Adam are not, but disobedience still eventually brings death and an eternal loss of God's favor and salvation.
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