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Believers have the Holy Spirit in them which gives them new desires. To say a believer has the right to sin without consequence is to say the Holy Spirit guides people into sin, which is blaspheme. Read the book of Hebrews where it talks about God's discipline. Believers who sin receive discipline from the Father.
I'm reminded of the classic father and son image of the father telling his son not to do something that is wrong but his son does it anyway. The father gives his son a whooping for doing the bad thing but that evening the father shows his love for his son by taking him out to get ice cream. The bad thing the son did never separated him from the love of his father.
Today it is the same for believers. If we sin, we get disciplined but the blessings still come to show how much the Father loves us and to show that no sin can ever separate us from His love.
I am not saying the Holy Spirit tells the Believer to go sin,
that would be ridiculous.
But regardless of what we "believe"
we all have free will,
so even if their is a little "Holy Spirit" voice in your head saying "do Good" there is also a little devil who tempts you to do bad.
Even if a person "Believes"
It is still the persons choice to chose which side to listen to.
Assuming the Believer listens to the Temptation, let's say their an Angry person, let's even say some where inside them their "Holy Spirit" is saying "Don't" but they give into Wrath any way,
If this person willingly gives into Wrath and kills some one are they going to be held accountable for it by God? After all you said no Sin can separate some one from God. Will the person though they knew what the right course of action was and yet chose the bad be allowed into Gods Paradise?
Actually you just said no Sin can separate us from his Love.
If you really believe that then the Sin of Disbelief shouldn't matter, God should be able to Love us no matter what we believe.
Just because you "Believe" doesn't mean you automatically become perfect, there is still temptation and the desire to give into it. After all we are flesh and blood human beings, it's going to happen.
Even the most Righteous of People make mistakes, after all where only human.
Originally Posted by Mike930 View Post
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azrael17
Can you explain your interpretation of that verse as it applies to my question.
I am not understanding your response, it's been a long day at work and my head is killing me.
Thank you may peace and love be with you always.
It looks to me like he is saying "yes" to your question by pulling the old chestnut about "God's ways are above our ways," when anything does not make a lick of sense.
Originally Posted by Mike930 View Post
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
It looks to me like he is saying "yes" to your question by pulling the old chestnut about "God's ways are above our ways," when anything does not make a lick of sense.
Spoken like a true legalist.
Remember Jeffrey Dahmer? He was the guy that was killing young boys and eating them. Horrific stuff. After he went to prison there was a rumor that he became a Christian. Later someone killed him in prison. I'm not sure if the Christian part was true or not, but let's say it was. There was a radio host I heard that said if Dahmer was in heaven, he would rather go to hell. After what Dahmer did, he felt it was wrong for him to be forgiven. That's what I meant by the foolishness of the cross.
Take two people. Dahmer and Bill Gates. We know what Dahmer did. If he accepts Christ as his savior, then he goes to heaven. Gates took his wealth, created a foundation that does good philanthropic works. He does a lot of good works. If he doesn't accept Christ, he goes to hell.
I hear that stupid argument all the time. "Ok, so if I'm saved and then go murder 40 school kids, am I still saved?" What a stupid statement. The Holy Spirit changes believes from the inside out. It's an inner transformation, not behavior modification. You no longer want to do the things you used to.
Take it to a more reasonable scenario. Lets say a believer commits adultery. Is he/she still saved? Yes. But knowing you are the righteousness of God will defeat that behavior.
It's not about your works. It's about the finished work.
The Holy Spirit changes believes from the inside out. It's an inner transformation, not behavior modification. You no longer want to do the things you used to.
And THAT is all we have been saying all along, and that the things you do as a result of that transformation only demonstrate that transformation.
So, now my only question is what you are arguing with?
And THAT is all we have been saying all along, and that the things you do as a result of that transformation only demonstrate that transformation.
So, now my only question is what you are arguing with?
I'm not arguing about anything. There was a post that asked if a believer could go on a killing spree, then commit suicide and go to heaven. I was trying to bring it down to a more realistic level. You don't usually see someone do that. You do, however, see believers commit adultery, for example.
It's not a problem of being saved or not. It's a problem of not knowing their identity, not knowing who they are in Christ. And before you start in with the works stuff and if they're really saved, they wouldn't sin, you need to know what sin is. I said it on another post.
Worried? Sin. Scared? Sin. Lose your temper? Sin. Take pride in a job well done? Sin. Trying to figure out how to make ends meet? Sin.
The problem with legalism is that legalists actually think they can keep the law as long as they don't pillage, rape or murder. Sin is sin. The severity doesn't matter. Being fearful will send you to he'll as fast as murder.
By fear, I don't mean the fear of The Lord. That's talking about reverence anyways, not really fear as in afraid of a rattlesnake or something similar, which by the way, is sin.
I'm not arguing about anything. There was a post that asked if a believer could go on a killing spree, then commit suicide and go to heaven. I was trying to bring it down to a more realistic level. You don't usually see someone do that. You do, however, see believers commit adultery, for example.
It's not a problem of being saved or not. It's a problem of not knowing their identity, not knowing who they are in Christ. And before you start in with the works stuff and if they're really saved, they wouldn't sin, you need to know what sin is. I said it on another post.
Worried? Sin. Scared? Sin. Lose your temper? Sin. Take pride in a job well done? Sin. Trying to figure out how to make ends meet? Sin.
The problem with legalism is that legalists actually think they can keep the law as long as they don't pillage, rape or murder. Sin is sin. The severity doesn't matter. Being fearful will send you to he'll as fast as murder.
By fear, I don't mean the fear of The Lord. That's talking about reverence anyways, not really fear as in afraid of a rattlesnake or something similar, which by the way, is sin.
NOw you are on an enirely different track and you should look at people's track record for that track before making pronouncements. As I have said, it is the commitment that matters, the invitation to have the Spirit guide and change us. Yes, we fail at hitting our new mark, but as long as we maintain that commitment, those failures are only educational opportunities, blips in our path to becoming more Christlike. It'[s not about breaking rules, it's about growing in Christ. To him that knows to do good and does it not, to him that is sin.......an opportunity lost.
Believers have the Holy Spirit in them which gives them new desires. To say a believer has the right to sin without consequence is to say the Holy Spirit guides people into sin, which is blaspheme. Read the book of Hebrews where it talks about God's discipline. Believers who sin receive discipline from the Father.
I'm reminded of the classic father and son image of the father telling his son not to do something that is wrong but his son does it anyway. The father gives his son a whooping for doing the bad thing but that evening the father shows his love for his son by taking him out to get ice cream. The bad thing the son did never separated him from the love of his father.
Today it is the same for believers. If we sin, we get disciplined but the blessings still come to show how much the Father loves us and to show that no sin can ever separate us from His love.
So then Romans519, are you saying that a person with the Holy Spirit will not practice sin? That they will do Good works instead?
Originally Posted by Mike930 View Post
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
It looks to me like he is saying "yes" to your question by pulling the old chestnut about "God's ways are above our ways," when anything does not make a lick of sense.
That is what I thought when I read that also. It was like Mike was saying of course we can murder because we are salvation is eternally secure. But I don't think he really meant it that way. I think it just came across like that. I think he sees the problem with saying he is eternal secure and that he doesn't need to do good works and then to have to say that he can't sin. It would mean that what is left is the requirement to do good works.
Remember Jeffrey Dahmer? He was the guy that was killing young boys and eating them. Horrific stuff. After he went to prison there was a rumor that he became a Christian. Later someone killed him in prison. I'm not sure if the Christian part was true or not, but let's say it was. There was a radio host I heard that said if Dahmer was in heaven, he would rather go to hell. After what Dahmer did, he felt it was wrong for him to be forgiven. That's what I meant by the foolishness of the cross.
Take two people. Dahmer and Bill Gates. We know what Dahmer did. If he accepts Christ as his savior, then he goes to heaven. Gates took his wealth, created a foundation that does good philanthropic works. He does a lot of good works. If he doesn't accept Christ, he goes to hell.
I hear that stupid argument all the time. "Ok, so if I'm saved and then go murder 40 school kids, am I still saved?" What a stupid statement. The Holy Spirit changes believes from the inside out. It's an inner transformation, not behavior modification. You no longer want to do the things you used to.
Take it to a more reasonable scenario. Lets say a believer commits adultery. Is he/she still saved? Yes. But knowing you are the righteousness of God will defeat that behavior.
It's not about your works. It's about the finished work.
I actually believe what you said about the Holy Spirit causing you to no longer want to do the things you used to. So if you believe that also, and someone claims to have the Holy Spririt then they must continue to be doing Good Works or they are not saved, correct? If you don't think so, then tell me how can one continue in bad works if they have the Holy Spirit. Isn't it a requirement of a person with the Holy Spirit to be doing Good Works?
I'm not arguing about anything. There was a post that asked if a believer could go on a killing spree, then commit suicide and go to heaven. I was trying to bring it down to a more realistic level. You don't usually see someone do that. You do, however, see believers commit adultery, for example.
It's not a problem of being saved or not. It's a problem of not knowing their identity, not knowing who they are in Christ. And before you start in with the works stuff and if they're really saved, they wouldn't sin, you need to know what sin is. I said it on another post.
Worried? Sin. Scared? Sin. Lose your temper? Sin. Take pride in a job well done? Sin. Trying to figure out how to make ends meet? Sin.
The problem with legalism is that legalists actually think they can keep the law as long as they don't pillage, rape or murder. Sin is sin. The severity doesn't matter. Being fearful will send you to he'll as fast as murder.
By fear, I don't mean the fear of The Lord. That's talking about reverence anyways, not really fear as in afraid of a rattlesnake or something similar, which by the way, is sin.
So are you of the belief that any obedience is "legalism". I mean nobody I have seen in this thread is saying you have to follow the Mosaic law. So I'm under the impression that you believe obedience is legalism, correct? Jesus said He was obedient.
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