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1 Thessalonians is the first writing in the New Testament written by Paul and dating from about 57 AD.
1 Thes 4:15-17 “15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever” (NRSV)
It contains one of the six prophecies of the Second Coming during the lifetime of Jesus contemporaries. (The other five are in the Synoptics).
However, 2 Thessalonians refutes this:
(2 Thessalonians 2) “As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction.”
Scriptural scholar, the late Raymond Brown and many others consider 2 Thessalonians to be pseudepigraphical (not written by the person it is attributed to) and dates it to the end of the first century.
If this is true someone observed we have a forger calling Paul a forger.
1 Thessalonians is the first writing in the New Testament written by Paul and dating from about 57 AD.
1 Thes 4:15-17 “15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever” (NRSV)
It contains one of the six prophecies of the Second Coming during the lifetime of Jesus contemporaries. (The other five are in the Synoptics).
However, 2 Thessalonians refutes this:
(2 Thessalonians 2) “As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction.”
Scriptural scholar, the late Raymond Brown and many others consider 2 Thessalonians to be pseudepigraphical (not written by the person it is attributed to) and dates it to the end of the first century.
If this is true someone observed we have a forger calling Paul a forger.
1 Thessalonians is the first writing in the New Testament written by Paul and dating from about 57 AD.
1 Thes 4:15-17 “15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever” (NRSV)
It contains one of the six prophecies of the Second Coming during the lifetime of Jesus contemporaries. (The other five are in the Synoptics).
However, 2 Thessalonians refutes this:
(2 Thessalonians 2) “As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction.”
Scriptural scholar, the late Raymond Brown and many others consider 2 Thessalonians to be pseudepigraphical (not written by the person it is attributed to) and dates it to the end of the first century.
If this is true someone observed we have a forger calling Paul a forger.
No, 2 Thessalonians is not a forgery and it does not refute or contradict 1 Thessalonians. 'The coming of the Lord' in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 refers to the rapture of the church and occurs before the 'Day of the Lord' which begins with the Tribulation which will occur after the church has been caught up or raptured. What you think is a refutation of 1 Thessalonians by 2 Thessalonians is Paul's reassurance to the Thessalonians they had not missed the rapture of the church. The catching up or rapture of the church is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
In 1 Thessalonians 1:10 Paul had stated that Jesus would rescue the church from the wrath to come (the Tribulation).
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
In 1 Thessalonians 5:9 Paul again states that God has not destined us (the church) for wrath, but for obtaining salvation (deliverance) through Jesus Christ. The context of 1 Thessalonians chapter 5 is the Day of the Lord. The reference is to the temporal deliverance of the church by means of the catching up or rapture of the church from the wrath of the Day of the Lord in the Tribulation.
For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10] who died for us, so that whether we are awake of asleep, we will live together with Him.
After Paul had taught the Thessalonians concerning the rapture or catching up of the church, they began receiving messages or letters that the 'Day of the Lord' was upon them (2 Thess. 2:2). Paul assured them in his second letter to them that the 'Day of the Lord' would not come until the apostasy first comes and the 'man of lawlessness' is revealed. He then said that the appearance of the man of lawlessness would not happen until the one restraining him is taken out of the way. That is a reference to the Holy Spirit whose restraining ministry will be removed when the church is raptured. The Holy Spirit indwells the church age believer. When the church is removed, the Holy Spirit's restraining ministry will be lifted allowing the man of lawlessness to appear. The Tribulation will begin with the signing of a firm covenant with the many (a peace treaty with Israel) by the man of lawlessness (the prince who is to come in Daniel 9:26-27).
The Bible Knowledge Commentary states the following;
In his first letter to the Thessalonians Paul had taught them that the day of the Lord would come as a thief in the night (1 Thes. 5:2). This instruction raised a question in his readers' minds. It must have seemed to some of them that the day of the Lord had already come. After all, the persecutions they were experiencing seemed to be what the prophets had predicted when they wrote about the great calamities coming on God's people and the world in the day of the Lord.The Thessalonians apparently had received instruction from other teachers to the effect that they were indeed experiencing the judgments of the day of the Lord, that is, the Great Tribulation. But if this were so, how could Paul's previous instruction that they would be caught up and escape the wrath of God coming on the earth be true? Paul wrote this section (2 Thes. 2:1-5) to straighten out the matter. [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty. p. 717.]
The coming of the Lord for the church to take it into heaven precedes the 'Day of the Lord' which is a period of God's direct judgment on the Earth.
1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 tell us that the church will be raptured and not go through the Day of the Lord with reference to the Tribulation.
>>No, 2 Thessalonians is not a forgery and it does not refute or contradict 1 Thessalonians. 'The coming of the Lord' in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 refers to the rapture of the church and occurs before the 'Day of the Lord' which begins with the Tribulation which will occur after the church has been caught up or raptured. What you think is a refutation of 1 Thessalonians by 2 Thessalonians is Paul's reassurance to the Thessalonians they had not missed the rapture of the church. The catching up or rapture of the church is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:17<<
RESPONSE:
Lets again look at the plain meaning of words:
1 Thes 4:15-17 “15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever” (NRSV)
Since Paul wrote after the Ascension and Jesus was to return, this, by definition, is a Second Coming. It is to occur during the life time of those who are alive when Paul wrote (actually in 51 AD).
You can think of it as a "Rapture" if you like, But in either case, it did not occur. Jesus or Paul were wrong.
In the case of Thessalonians 2, the writer was implying that he was Paul and the writer of 1 Thess. was not Paul. ie "by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us." ie. Thus Thess. 2 is claiming that 1 Thess. is a forgery.
>>No, 2 Thessalonians is not a forgery and it does not refute or contradict 1 Thessalonians. 'The coming of the Lord' in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 refers to the rapture of the church and occurs before the 'Day of the Lord' which begins with the Tribulation which will occur after the church has been caught up or raptured. What you think is a refutation of 1 Thessalonians by 2 Thessalonians is Paul's reassurance to the Thessalonians they had not missed the rapture of the church. The catching up or rapture of the church is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:17<<
RESPONSE:
Lets again look at the plain meaning of words:
1 Thes 4:15-17 “15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever” (NRSV)
Since Paul wrote after the Ascension and Jesus was to return, this, by definition, is a Second Coming. It is to occur during the life time of those who are alive when Paul wrote (actually in 51 AD).
You can think of it as a "Rapture" if you like, But in either case, it did not occur. Jesus or Paul were wrong.
In the case of Thessalonians 2, the writer was implying that he was Paul and the writer of 1 Thess. was not Paul. ie "by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us." ie. Thus Thess. 2 is claiming that 1 Thess. is a forgery.
The rapture of the church is imminent. This means that there are no prophecies which must take place before the rapture can occur. It could occur at any time. The first century Christians had every reason to expect that the rapture would occur. Just as the church today is to expect that the rapture could occur at any time. The rapture of the Church which is pre-tribulational is not the Second Advent of Christ which is post-tribulational.
As I have told you before, when Jesus referred to 'this generation' in Matthew 24:34 He was not speaking of the generation that was listening to Him, BECAUSE HE HAD ALREADY TOLD THEM THAT THE KINGDOM HAD BEEN TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM. SEE MATTHEW 21:43. In Acts 1:6 the apostles asked the resurrected Jesus if the kingdom would be restored to Israel at that time. Jesus told them that it was not for them to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority, thus leaving open the possibility of a long period of time before His return (again not referring to the rapture of the church, but to His return at the end of the Tribulation).
The writer of both 1 and 2 Thessalonians was Paul and he was not claiming that 1 Thessalonians was a forgery. I have already explained the situation to you. And of course you simply ignored the following from post #3;
The Bible Knowledge Commentary states the following;
In his first letter to the Thessalonians Paul had taught them that the day of the Lord would come as a thief in the night (1 Thes. 5:2). This instruction raised a question in his readers' minds. It must have seemed to some of them that the day of the Lord had already come. After all, the persecutions they were experiencing seemed to be what the prophets had predicted when they wrote about the great calamities coming on God's people and the world in the day of the Lord.The Thessalonians apparently had received instruction from other teachers to the effect that they were indeed experiencing the judgments of the day of the Lord, that is, the Great Tribulation. But if this were so, how could Paul's previous instruction that they would be caught up and escape the wrath of God coming on the earth be true? Paul wrote this section (2 Thes. 2:1-5) to straighten out the matter. [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty. p. 717.]
Also of course, you will continue to disagree since as always, your obvious intent is to discredit the Bible and I think, to shake peoples faith. Now, it has been explained to you and you disagree. And you are wrong.
I cannot understand both sides of the argument in respect to the OP. The biblean cannot accept anything other than it being inerrant and the skeptic dismissing it because of proven errancy. If the same spirit that raised Jesus Christ from the dead is a reality in our life and ever present to guide us and lead us into the path of life, what does it matter if a few things are questionable whether they should be in the bible or not?
>>No, 2 Thessalonians is not a forgery and it does not refute or contradict 1 Thessalonians. 'The coming of the Lord' in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 refers to the rapture of the church and occurs before the 'Day of the Lord' which begins with the Tribulation which will occur after the church has been caught up or raptured. What you think is a refutation of 1 Thessalonians by 2 Thessalonians is Paul's reassurance to the Thessalonians they had not missed the rapture of the church. The catching up or rapture of the church is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:17<<
RESPONSE:
Lets again look at the plain meaning of words:
1 Thes 4:15-17 “15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever” (NRSV)
Since Paul wrote after the Ascension and Jesus was to return, this, by definition, is a Second Coming. It is to occur during the life time of those who are alive when Paul wrote (actually in 51 AD).
You can think of it as a "Rapture" if you like, But in either case, it did not occur. Jesus or Paul were wrong.
In the case of Thessalonians 2, the writer was implying that he was Paul and the writer of 1 Thess. was not Paul. ie "by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us." ie. Thus Thess. 2 is claiming that 1 Thess. is a forgery.
No forgery, just a lack of your understanding of the verses:
1Th 4:15 for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living--who do remain over to the presence of the Lord--may not precede those asleep,
This is Paul explaining the second coming (nothing here is showing it would happen in his earthly lifetime).
>>No, 2 Thessalonians is not a forgery and it does not refute or contradict 1 Thessalonians. 'The coming of the Lord' in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 refers to the rapture of the church and occurs before the 'Day of the Lord' which begins with the Tribulation which will occur after the church has been caught up or raptured. What you think is a refutation of 1 Thessalonians by 2 Thessalonians is Paul's reassurance to the Thessalonians they had not missed the rapture of the church. The catching up or rapture of the church is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:17<<
RESPONSE:
Lets again look at the plain meaning of words:
1 Thes 4:15-17 “15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever” (NRSV)
Since Paul wrote after the Ascension and Jesus was to return, this, by definition, is a Second Coming. It is to occur during the life time of those who are alive when Paul wrote (actually in 51 AD).
You can think of it as a "Rapture" if you like, But in either case, it did not occur. Jesus or Paul were wrong.
In the case of Thessalonians 2, the writer was implying that he was Paul and the writer of 1 Thess. was not Paul. ie "by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us." ie. Thus Thess. 2 is claiming that 1 Thess. is a forgery.
There is a warning of a wolf from the tribe of Benjamin and Paul states that he is descended from that tribe...
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