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Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton
Then it seems like we are closer in our views than previously understood. However, what is wrong with calling sin, "sin"? Isn't that what scripture does and why we recognize it as wrong? (It is not 'sin' that condemns one, but, their refusal of God's forgiveness in Jesus Christ.)
Without God's standard, we risk simply adopting an ever-changing worldly standard - where everything eventually becomes 'right' and acceptable. Also, while we agree that our role is not to "condemn him," (we are to deal with him in the same manner as a loving parent deals with a child); ...We cannot simply ignore the behavior -- or condone it by reflecting on our own past indiscretions.
The so called God standard certainly isn't something I want to live up to as portrayed especially in the OT.
I mean do you believe that we still should be stoning people because they pick up sticks on the Sabbath, that we should nearly annihilate neighboring tribes but keep they're virgins for own pleasure, that we should adore someone who causes numerous baby deaths in Egypt, that inflicts other untold horrible things to those residents?
No, I would much rather prefer the secular version of morality.
The so called God standard certainly isn't something I want to live up to as portrayed especially in the OT.
I mean do you believe that we still should be stoning people because they pick up sticks on the Sabbath, that we should nearly annihilate neighboring tribes but keep they're virgins for own pleasure, that we should adore someone who causes numerous baby deaths in Egypt, that inflicts other untold horrible things to those residents?
No, I would much rather prefer the secular version of morality.
?Who told you that these things were 'God's Standard?' (You've actually got a mishmash of King Herod, the Pharisees and false idol worship. You would do well to get a Bible and check things out for yourself ... in fact, you will be ultimately accountable to God for your response to His Word and Truth!
Many of man’s indiscretions are truthfully reported in the Bible, but, that certainly does not make them God's standard! -- Many folks do things in the 'name of God' that have absolutely nothing to do with God. That said, there ARE many things that God commanded or declared, which bear absolutely no resemblance to the world's standard of right and wrong.
In any case, your response is much like saying, "I've heard that there are a lot of hypocrites and bad people in grocery stores', therefore, I'm going to stop eating!" Your motives may be well-intentioned, but, your assumptions and conclusions are wrong, (... and you will still 'starve').
James 2:14-26
New King James Version (NKJV)
Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
The two verses you bolded above do not contradict one another, in fact they say the same thing, in different word order. Let's change the word order and see. Maybe that will help. First let's change the order of verse 17. Verse 17. Thus, if you do not have works, but faith by itself, it is dead. Verse 24. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. Now let's change the order of verse 24. Verse 24. Not by your faith only, for a man is justified by works. Verse 17. Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Faith and works go hand in hand. It is not enough to merely profess faith, for without works, your faith is dead.
James 2:14-26
New King James Version (NKJV)
Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
The two verses you bolded above do not contradict one another, in fact they say the same thing, in different word order. Let's change the word order and see. Maybe that will help. First let's change the order of verse 17. Verse 17. Thus, if you do not have works, but faith by itself, it is dead. Verse 24. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. Now let's change the order of verse 24. Verse 24. Not by your faith only, for a man is justified by works. Verse 17. Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
[b]
Faith and works go hand in hand. It is not enough to merely profess faith, for without works, your faith is dead.
I am speechless. What a terrific conclusion--and one which the majority of Protestant Christians on this thread will protest.
But you have a profound insight. Both faith and works are two sides of the same coin.
I am speechless. What a terrific conclusion--and one which the majority of Protestant Christians on this thread will protest.But you have a profound insight. Both faith and works are two sides of the same coin.
God bless.
Thanks Wardendresden. Seriously, it means a lot to get a thumbs up from you. Today, has been a blessing to recieve affirmation from both you and J G Horton.
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What a terrific observation
