The Eucharist and the NT (John 6:51-57), why is this a controversy? (Torah, tradition)
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Luke 22:19
King James Version (KJV)
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Please answer the question. I'm asking you directly. Is the Eucharist the only thing required for entrance to heaven?
I just preached through John. I covered this section. To suggest we ignore it is simply incorrect. The question is what did Jesus mean in context?
Can you explain what you told the parishioners?
John 6:51-54
King James Version (KJV)
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
What did you say about the parts in bold?
Quote:
I will ask you again: What is required for entrance to heaven? Is it simply that we take the eucharist?
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
What did you say about the parts in bold?
Live like a Christian.
According to the passage you quoted, if Jesus was referring to literally partaking of his flesh and blood as the Eucharist, then partaking of it qualifies us for entrance into heaven.
According to the passage you quoted, if Jesus was referring to literally partaking of his flesh and blood as the Eucharist, then partaking of it qualifies us for entrance into heaven.
Is that not true?
Salvation is accepting Jesus and the Eucharist is the ultimate communion with the essence of Jesus.
You are going to probably say that one instant, one epiphany is all that is needed once in a life time. But, for us Catholics we work at it all the time. Being a Christian means being a Christian 24/7.
Salvation is accepting Jesus and the Eucharist is the ultimate communion with the essence of Jesus.
You are going to probably say that one instant, one epiphany is all that is needed once in a life time. But, for us Catholics we work at it all the time. Being a Christian means being a Christian 24/7.
If you take the passage as literal, then you do not have to believe, accept, etc, just partake at a church and .... according to the verses you quoted, you get eternal life.
There are and have been many Eucharistic miracles.
Anyone can search them.
In ordinary circumstances, however, Christ's body and blood must naturally maintain
the specie in which they were originally given by Christ at the Last Supper
so that we may partake worthily.
Salvation is accepting Jesus and the Eucharist is the ultimate communion with the essence of Jesus.
You are going to probably say that one instant, one epiphany is all that is needed once in a life time. But, for us Catholics we work at it all the time. Being a Christian means being a Christian 24/7.
if you are going to suggest that this passage explicitly states that Jesus meant we would literally eat his flesh and drink his blood, then you must conclude, according to this passage, that we have eternal life by doing so--as it says.
Why the discrepancy? You are not being consistent here.
if you are going to suggest that this passage explicitly states that Jesus meant we would literally eat his flesh and drink his blood, then you must conclude, according to this passage, that we have eternal life by doing so--as it says.
Why the discrepancy? You are not being consistent here.
Salvation is a package; I am Catholic.
The instant salvation you want to mention only applies for those that have a minute or two left before death.
And there is no flesh in the Eucharist. It is the essence of resurrected Jesus.
The message is the message. And obviously, no one is eating actual flesh during communion.
I wish people would see how the Bible is mostly allegorical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658
There is no human tissue or blood in the Eucharist. it is simply the essence of Jesus resurrected. This is a belief system of the Church actually based on the words of Jesus in the NT.
Sola Scriptura folks simply ignore this part of the NT, which I find puzzling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA
You are right, allegorical and even the majority of the listeners did not discern that. Remember It is said that Jesus would not speak to them without a parable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658
Salvation is accepting Jesus and the Eucharist is the ultimate communion with the essence of Jesus.
Okay let's break down your posts.
1. You say no one is eating the actual flesh or drinking the blood.
2. You follow that up saying there is no human tissue or blood in the Eucharistic elements.
3. You say Jesus's word are allegorical.
3. But, twice you say the Eucharistic elements are the essence of Christ.
Definition of essence: the nature of the thing.
It sounds like you are saying the Eucharistic elements are both the essence and the abstract.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
Regarding Real Presence;
1.The Church's Magna Charta, however, are the words of Institution, "This is my body — this is my blood", whose literal meaning she has uninterruptedly adhered to from the earliest times. The Real Presence is evinced, positively, by showing the necessity of the literal sense of these words, and negatively, by refuting the figurative interpretations.
2.In the two councils of Lateran (1078 and 1079) Berengarius accepts and signs this profession of faith that after the consecration, the bread is the true body of Christ, the very body born of the Virgin — that the bread and wine on the altar, by the mystery of the sacred prayer and words of our Redeemer, are substantially converted into the very flesh and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, true and life-giving, etc.
Regarding Salvation;
The doctrine of the Church is that Holy Communion is morally necessary for salvation, that is to say, without the graces of this sacrament it would be very difficult to resist grave temptations and avoid grievous sin.
Regarding Transubstantiation:
Transubstantiation, however, is not a conversion simply so called, but a substantial conversion (conversio substantialis), inasmuch as one thing is substantially or essentially converted into another. Thus from the concept of Transubstantiation is excluded every sort of merely accidental conversion, whether it be purely natural (e.g. the metamorphosis of insects) or supernatural (e.g. the Transfiguration of Christ on Mount Tabor). Finally, Transubstantiation differs from every other substantial conversion in this, that only the substance is converted into another — the accidents remaining the same — just as would be the case if wood were miraculously converted into iron, the substance of the iron remaining hidden under the external appearance of the wood.
From Against Heresies by Saint Irenaeus,
There can be no blood without veins, flesh and the rest of the human substance....When the chalice we mix and the bread we bake receive the word of God, the eucharistic elements become the body and blood of Christ, by which our bodies live and grow.
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