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Old 11-20-2013, 08:00 AM
 
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How many times have we heard a person say they repent when they committed a sin? What do they really mean? I believe for most christians, we see this term as pretty much turning away from that action. Breaking it down, repenting means you are going in one direction, and then you turn around and go in the opposite direction. So in terms of righteousenss, you turn from your evil ways. Repentance can also mean being deeply sorrowful and remorseful. Both of those definitions are correct, however, repentance in the NT has a completely different context.



We have to remember the languages the Bible were written in. In the Hebrew OT, repentance meant those first two definitions. Yet in the NT, repentance means a different kind of change. It means to change your mind or change your understanding. In the NT, the "change" takes place from your nature, and this is the only repentance that involves Christ. So let me break this down further. Mark says Jesus began His ministry with the saying of "repent and believe in the Gospel". If repentance here meant turning away from your actions and begin being righteous, where does that leave room for the Gospel? If we could all of a sudden be righteous, why would we need Jesus to be righteous? Nope, the greek word is "Metanoia", meaning to go beyond your mind or to change your understanding. So in this reference in Mark, what am I changing in my thinking? I'm changing the thinking that I can choose to be righteous in my own strength. That I can change my evil way, and go in a righteous direction. Ultimately, and I believe most Christians understand this, I see I'm corrupted from my nature and I need salvation. So I repent, I change my perception about myself, and then I believe on the Gospel. The good news that Jesus paved a way for righteousness. That I'm made right and perfect in Him. So that is NT repentance.



So wait, don't most christians have a good understanding of this, and that is why we are christians in the first place? I believe christians understand the whole thing about needing a savior, but they don't necessarily understand the language of repentance. (Kind of like that saying of not being able the read the sign that says toilet, but that doesn't mean the same person don't know how to use it. ) It's because of that however, that we still stumble over what repentance truly mean.


For example, I work in a grocery store. There was a particular incident a while back where a customer of mine was having a little trouble of understanding some of the sales prices of our items. Now it was obvious this customer's first language wasn't english. So we took a little bit of time in going over some of the prices and so on. Now this happened in the check out line. While it didn't take long at all to make sure the customer understood the prices (If I remember correctly, the problem was only over one particular item), I could tell the lady behind this customer was a little agitated. So when the customer finished checking out and left, the woman made a comment that this was America or something to that effect. Implying the customer who was having trouble because of the language or cultural barrier, should know the language if they are going to shop or interact with others. I didn't say nothing in response (I was the bagger by the way) and I believe the cashier may have given an uncomfortable smile. The woman sensing the uncomfortable air then said she'll repent about the situation. Of course back then I had an understanding of repentance and the greek language, and when I heard her say that and saw the lack of covinction in her voice (she said it in joking fashion to ease the air of her comment), my immediate thought was 'you aren't truly repenting'. Now, I don't doubt she felt bad for her comment. I saw she felt guilty for what she said, which that feeling may have been brought on by my reaction of uncomfortable silence. Yet feeling sorrowful fits the OT Hebrew meaning of the word repentance, and not Christian repentance. (Which requires changing of the mind) She felt sorrow for her statement but she didn't change her mind about the customer. The statement came from her thinking about the customer.



So, that was just a small sample of what I'm talking about. The reality is most christians don't truly understand what repentance means. Being sorrowful and changing your action is a definition of repentance. However if you could change your action on your own strength, you don't need Jesus. This kind of repentance excludes Jesus. NT Repentance includes Jesus, because everything we do is because of Him. Remember, we were baptized into His death, meaning we all died in Jesus. (Our old nature died) We are then raised again with Jesus' new nature. Everything we now do, if we do righteousness, that righteousness eminates from Him. We still have these bodies, and they are yet to be changed. Our body is the only thing that is still corrupt about us. Corrupt thinking comes from our bodies' feelings and of course it also comes from the enemy's enticement of our bodies. (Someone can suggest something to you that is wrong, but your body want to do it) To truly repent, it means we consider Jesus' thoughts. We consider our righteousness in Jesus. A basic thing to say would be "I'm the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus". When you say that, you are repenting, you are changing your thoughts about yourself. Dwelling on some of the things Paul talked about in Philippians 4:8, you are repenting. You actions will correspond to what you dwell on in your thoughts. And this is not some abstract thing, we literally have the power in our new spirit to live righteously. It's your thoughts and what you dwell on that determine what you do.


So what if we commit a sin, what should a christian's response be? Should it be a sorrowful repentance? Should it be I'm going to change my action repentance? Nope, it should be a change your mind repentance. Although when it comes to sin, you only change your mind once. As we say, sin is sin is sin. We know those actions are below God's mark. (And there is a whole lot of "actions" that we didn't even know are below God's mark) Yet we know where sinful action has it's origin. Don't be surprised to sin if you are living life from the effort of your flesh. Scripture tells us that our flesh and God are at emnity with one another. We now have a new nature in Christ. We must see ourselves in Christ and dwell in our thoughts from that position. That might sound boring to the traditional thinker, but they don't know. This thing is liberating! This will be proven once christians get a full understanding of these things, the true definition of repentance being one of them.
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Old 11-20-2013, 08:27 AM
 
18,172 posts, read 16,406,841 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
How many times have we heard a person say they repent when they committed a sin? What do they really mean? I believe for most christians, we see this term as pretty much turning away from that action. Breaking it down, repenting means you are going in one direction, and then you turn around and go in the opposite direction. So in terms of righteousenss, you turn from your evil ways. Repentance can also mean being deeply sorrowful and remorseful. Both of those definitions are correct, however, repentance in the NT has a completely different context.



We have to remember the languages the Bible were written in. In the Hebrew OT, repentance meant those first two definitions. Yet in the NT, repentance means a different kind of change. It means to change your mind or change your understanding. In the NT, the "change" takes place from your nature, and this is the only repentance that involves Christ. So let me break this down further. Mark says Jesus began His ministry with the saying of "repent and believe in the Gospel". If repentance here meant turning away from your actions and begin being righteous, where does that leave room for the Gospel? If we could all of a sudden be righteous, why would we need Jesus to be righteous? Nope, the greek word is "Metanoia", meaning to go beyond your mind or to change your understanding. So in this reference in Mark, what am I changing in my thinking? I'm changing the thinking that I can choose to be righteous in my own strength. That I can change my evil way, and go in a righteous direction. Ultimately, and I believe most Christians understand this, I see I'm corrupted from my nature and I need salvation. So I repent, I change my perception about myself, and then I believe on the Gospel. The good news that Jesus paved a way for righteousness. That I'm made right and perfect in Him. So that is NT repentance.



So wait, don't most christians have a good understanding of this, and that is why we are christians in the first place? I believe christians understand the whole thing about needing a savior, but they don't necessarily understand the language of repentance. (Kind of like that saying of not being able the read the sign that says toilet, but that doesn't mean the same person don't know how to use it. ) It's because of that however, that we still stumble over what repentance truly mean.


For example, I work in a grocery store. There was a particular incident a while back where a customer of mine was having a little trouble of understanding some of the sales prices of our items. Now it was obvious this customer's first language wasn't english. So we took a little bit of time in going over some of the prices and so on. Now this happened in the check out line. While it didn't take long at all to make sure the customer understood the prices (If I remember correctly, the problem was only over one particular item), I could tell the lady behind this customer was a little agitated. So when the customer finished checking out and left, the woman made a comment that this was America or something to that effect. Implying the customer who was having trouble because of the language or cultural barrier, should know the language if they are going to shop or interact with others. I didn't say nothing in response (I was the bagger by the way) and I believe the cashier may have given an uncomfortable smile. The woman sensing the uncomfortable air then said she'll repent about the situation. Of course back then I had an understanding of repentance and the greek language, and when I heard her say that and saw the lack of covinction in her voice (she said it in joking fashion to ease the air of her comment), my immediate thought was 'you aren't truly repenting'. Now, I don't doubt she felt bad for her comment. I saw she felt guilty for what she said, which that feeling may have been brought on by my reaction of uncomfortable silence. Yet feeling sorrowful fits the OT Hebrew meaning of the word repentance, and not Christian repentance. (Which requires changing of the mind) She felt sorrow for her statement but she didn't change her mind about the customer. The statement came from her thinking about the customer.



So, that was just a small sample of what I'm talking about. The reality is most christians don't truly understand what repentance means. Being sorrowful and changing your action is a definition of repentance. However if you could change your action on your own strength, you don't need Jesus. This kind of repentance excludes Jesus. NT Repentance includes Jesus, because everything we do is because of Him. Remember, we were baptized into His death, meaning we all died in Jesus. (Our old nature died) We are then raised again with Jesus' new nature. Everything we now do, if we do righteousness, that righteousness eminates from Him. We still have these bodies, and they are yet to be changed. Our body is the only thing that is still corrupt about us. Corrupt thinking comes from our bodies' feelings and of course it also comes from the enemy's enticement of our bodies. (Someone can suggest something to you that is wrong, but your body want to do it) To truly repent, it means we consider Jesus' thoughts. We consider our righteousness in Jesus. A basic thing to say would be "I'm the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus". When you say that, you are repenting, you are changing your thoughts about yourself. Dwelling on some of the things Paul talked about in Philippians 4:8, you are repenting. You actions will correspond to what you dwell on in your thoughts. And this is not some abstract thing, we literally have the power in our new spirit to live righteously. It's your thoughts and what you dwell on that determine what you do.


So what if we commit a sin, what should a christian's response be? Should it be a sorrowful repentance? Should it be I'm going to change my action repentance? Nope, it should be a change your mind repentance. Although when it comes to sin, you only change your mind once. As we say, sin is sin is sin. We know those actions are below God's mark. (And there is a whole lot of "actions" that we didn't even know are below God's mark) Yet we know where sinful action has it's origin. Don't be surprised to sin if you are living life from the effort of your flesh. Scripture tells us that our flesh and God are at emnity with one another. We now have a new nature in Christ. We must see ourselves in Christ and dwell in our thoughts from that position. That might sound boring to the traditional thinker, but they don't know. This thing is liberating! This will be proven once christians get a full understanding of these things, the true definition of repentance being one of them.
Actually it should be change your mind, recognizing it is sin and that you sinned; turn away from it and be determined never to do it again and have sorrow for hurting God is an absolute necessity. This is both mental and physical.
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Old 11-20-2013, 08:58 AM
 
2,422 posts, read 1,450,473 times
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Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
Actually it should be change your mind, recognizing it is sin and that you sinned; turn away from it and be determined never to do it again and have sorrow for hurting God is an absolute necessity. This is both mental and physical.
The thing is if you could turn away from it and never do it again, you won't need Jesus' nature. You already have a nature that is capable of being righteous. Paul mentioned that he wanted to do good, but there was another law working in his body that prevented him from doing good. So he said who would save him from this body of death. Of course Jesus was his answer. For this reason, Paul said he boasts about his weaknesses. Because it is when he is weak, that Christ's power is the strongest. This shows us Paul leaned on Jesus, for righteous living. Most christians don't do this. They depend on their own effort to not commit sin, and of course they fail.


Christians tend to repent "be sorrowful and vow to never commit a particular sin again" about the same things over and over. They are at the point Paul was where he said the good that he will, he doesn't do, but the evil that he doesn't want to do, that he did. They are yet to reach the point of depending on Jesus and the nature He's given us. They still define repentance in the OT definiton.
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Old 11-20-2013, 11:26 AM
 
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There isn't an OT to NT definition change for repent or repentance. It's that the word metanoia was mistranslated first from Greek to Latin, then from Latin to English. Metanoia is a compound word meta-after or change and nous (noia)-mind. The word was translated into Latin paenitentiam agite or do penance. Do penance became associated with mortification and self-flagellation.

Biblical scholars Treadwell Walden calls metanoia "The greatest word in the New Testament," while J Glentworth Butler says defining it as repentance is "an utter mistranslation."

The problem is there is no adequate word in English for metanoia. An English word that is the opposite of metanoia that we all understand is paranoia. One means getting "into a right mind" the other "out of a right mind."

Is the message of the NT "Repent. Feel sorry for your sins!" or "Metanoia. Get your mind right in a new way!"

This I find interesting. I read on a Catholic website that the Protestant reformers believed paenitentiam agite not biblical and one reason for the rebellion. On a Protestant website I read the reformers continued trying to fit paenitentiam agite with sola fide.

The mistranslated metanoia continues to this day. Unfortunately, few listened when Tertullian said, “in Greek, metanoia is not a confession of sins but a change of mind.”
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Old 11-20-2013, 02:23 PM
 
2,422 posts, read 1,450,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bartstarr1960 View Post
There isn't an OT to NT definition change for repent or repentance. It's that the word metanoia was mistranslated first from Greek to Latin, then from Latin to English. Metanoia is a compound word meta-after or change and nous (noia)-mind. The word was translated into Latin paenitentiam agite or do penance. Do penance became associated with mortification and self-flagellation.

Biblical scholars Treadwell Walden calls metanoia "The greatest word in the New Testament," while J Glentworth Butler says defining it as repentance is "an utter mistranslation."

The problem is there is no adequate word in English for metanoia. An English word that is the opposite of metanoia that we all understand is paranoia. One means getting "into a right mind" the other "out of a right mind."

Is the message of the NT "Repent. Feel sorry for your sins!" or "Metanoia. Get your mind right in a new way!"

This I find interesting. I read on a Catholic website that the Protestant reformers believed paenitentiam agite not biblical and one reason for the rebellion. On a Protestant website I read the reformers continued trying to fit paenitentiam agite with sola fide.

The mistranslated metanoia continues to this day. Unfortunately, few listened when Tertullian said, “in Greek, metanoia is not a confession of sins but a change of mind.”

You're right with this. In fact, repentance may just be a western word altogether, and it's basic meaning in doing some kind of penance. That is getting really deep. I might have said let's just keep it simple and use the word repentance when talking on "getting in the right mind", but actually spelling out the meaning of metanoia would probably be more beneficial to christians all over the world. Scripture says in all your getting, get understanding. With understanding, we can finally live the lives that clearly express the power given to us in Christ.
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Old 11-20-2013, 05:02 PM
 
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fallen angels can hold curses where even demon have come and cursed a person who has sinned and this curse does not go away , Jesus may have some protection were curses may have little impact , but as time goes on these curses do not go away and demons take authority which Jesus plan is slowed and if people get deceived by these curses them faith in God can be with held , so prayers go un-answered , where the grace of God may sound silent ............... See if believer can hear demons through the anointing of discernment of Spirit , they would have repented from the very start of any curses which demons make and take up the authority of Jesus blood and bind up the demons and fallen angels and rip them right out to the pit in Jesus name ............. But believers who do not have discernment of spirit anointing and can not hear demons then other signs which can happen which they should know that repentance to Jesus will give Jesus the authority to bring cleansing and release from curses...... Then there are weak believers who use naturalism to show the works of the flesh and hold Jesus waiting for repentance ...
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Old 11-20-2013, 05:33 PM
 
18,172 posts, read 16,406,841 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
The thing is if you could turn away from it and never do it again, you won't need Jesus' nature. You already have a nature that is capable of being righteous. Paul mentioned that he wanted to do good, but there was another law working in his body that prevented him from doing good. So he said who would save him from this body of death. Of course Jesus was his answer. For this reason, Paul said he boasts about his weaknesses. Because it is when he is weak, that Christ's power is the strongest. This shows us Paul leaned on Jesus, for righteous living. Most christians don't do this. They depend on their own effort to not commit sin, and of course they fail.


Christians tend to repent "be sorrowful and vow to never commit a particular sin again" about the same things over and over. They are at the point Paul was where he said the good that he will, he doesn't do, but the evil that he doesn't want to do, that he did. They are yet to reach the point of depending on Jesus and the nature He's given us. They still define repentance in the OT definiton.
Obviously we can turn away from serious sin as many do who do not know God. It isn't just the act, but the reason for the act. That is love of God and His Son. Now doing it again and again simply means you were never repentent and do not see it as a real issue to avoid and certainly love of God is not truly involved. Do not confuse the beliefs of OSAS and similar with what the Bible teaches about genuine repentance.
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Old 11-20-2013, 05:46 PM
 
18,172 posts, read 16,406,841 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bartstarr1960 View Post
There isn't an OT to NT definition change for repent or repentance. It's that the word metanoia was mistranslated first from Greek to Latin, then from Latin to English. Metanoia is a compound word meta-after or change and nous (noia)-mind. The word was translated into Latin paenitentiam agite or do penance. Do penance became associated with mortification and self-flagellation.

Biblical scholars Treadwell Walden calls metanoia "The greatest word in the New Testament," while J Glentworth Butler says defining it as repentance is "an utter mistranslation."

The problem is there is no adequate word in English for metanoia. An English word that is the opposite of metanoia that we all understand is paranoia. One means getting "into a right mind" the other "out of a right mind."

Is the message of the NT "Repent. Feel sorry for your sins!" or "Metanoia. Get your mind right in a new way!"

This I find interesting. I read on a Catholic website that the Protestant reformers believed paenitentiam agite not biblical and one reason for the rebellion. On a Protestant website I read the reformers continued trying to fit paenitentiam agite with sola fide.

The mistranslated metanoia continues to this day. Unfortunately, few listened when Tertullian said, “in Greek, metanoia is not a confession of sins but a change of mind.”
Not a mistranslation as Bibles avoiding the Latin use the same word in English. Some even go a bit further as Young's iteral translation does:

YLT Matthew 3:8 bear, therefore, fruits worthy of the reformation,

When we speak of a reformed individual we mean one who has changed his mind and heart.

The Bible in Better English renders it as:

BBE Matthew 3:8 Let your change of heart be seen in your works:

Change in heart and actions.Greek compound words do not always mean simply what the components express anymore than they do in English. Note the following Biblical Greek lexicons and one Koine Greek lexicon of 1st century Greek.

Louw-Nida Greek lexicon.41.52 metanoe,w ; meta,noia, aj f: to change one's way of life as the result of a complete change of thought and attitude with regard to sin and righteousness - 'to repent, to change one's way, repentance.' metanoe,w: evxelqo,ntej evkh,ruxan i[na metanow/sin 'they went out and preached that the people should repent' Mk 6.12. meta,noia: avgnow/n o[ti to. crhsto.n tou/ qeou/ eivj meta,noia,n se a;gei 'do you fail to understand that God is kind because he wants to lead you to repent?' Ro 2.4. Friberg Greek lexicon:
18303 meta,noia, aj, h` strictly later knowledge, subsequent correction; (1) religiously and morally, as a change of mind leading to change of behavior repentance, conversion, turning about (MT 3.8; 2C 7.10);
Liddel and Scott (non Biblical)

26300 meta,noia
meta,noia, h`, after-thought, repentance, Thuc., etc.

It is what one does after thinking about what he has done and feels bad about it, wishing to change.

26299 metanoe,w
meta&noe,w, f. h,sw, to change one's mind or purpose, Plat., Xen.
2. to repent, Antipho, etc. Hence meta,noia

No mistranslation at all.
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
Obviously we can turn away from serious sin as many do who do not know God. It isn't just the act, but the reason for the act. That is love of God and His Son. Now doing it again and again simply means you were never repentent and do not see it as a real issue to avoid and certainly love of God is not truly involved. Do not confuse the beliefs of OSAS and similar with what the Bible teaches about genuine repentance.
I think our points aren't far off from each other. Metanoia is solely about changing your mind about your ability to be righteous. Remember for the sinner it's "metanoia (change your mind) and believe in the Gospel (Jesus' offers us righteousness and salvation)". Once you're a believer, you become one with Jesus, and it's by His power alone, that we live righteously and do anything. The second you believe in your ability (the flesh), you will fail everytime. A lot of people see the flesh as doing evil things such as doing all kinds of sin. Yet don't you know you can try to be righteous, through the effort of your flesh? People can help the poor from their flesh. They can feed the hungry from their flesh. Yet the flesh is weak, and there is only so much you can do from it. You certainly can't live up to God's standards from it, and this is exactly what most christians do.


So as a christian, our metanoia is changing our mind continously in becoming more informed of who we are in Christ. The more we behold Jesus, the more His power will shine through our bodies. The actions will then be Godly, and it will be amazing acts that can't be explained by human means. It will be like we are literally aliens on this planet. (As Jesus said that His disciples would do greater miracles than He did. That includes us if we are His disciple)


Also, we shouldn't live life based on our love for God. Our love for God stinks. We should always remember, it was God's love that saved us, not the other way around. God's love never changes. That's why Scripture says that this is love, not that we loved God but God loved us. Jesus gave us the Father's love, and His command was for us to love one another as He loved us. So we are to love one another with His love, and not ours. So our sole duty as christians on this earth, is to solely share God's love and be conscious of God's love for us. Again I think saying "God's love" will bore the traditional thinkers, but this isn't an abstract thing. It's powerful and it's liberating.
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Old 11-22-2013, 10:32 PM
 
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It's important to note that in the NT, repentance is not connected to a singular act of sin, but rather to a mindset and/or lifestyle. As believers, we are commanded to confess our sins--which, in the Greek, means to say the same thing. We acknowledge the sinfulness of that action to God, the fact that we shouldn't have done it, and keep it moving. But when that one act becomes a habit leading to an un-Christlike lifestyle or mindset, that's when repentance kicks in.
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