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And Hiker, you forget what I know you previously learned. The OT is a Chrstian book. We Jews have the Torah, and those are two entirely different documents.
I didn't forget that. Maybe I didn't word my original question correctly.
I wanted to ask Christians if they believed they worshiped the same god as the Jews.
To answer my question, they had to have their own understanding of the god worshiped by the Jews. To gain that understanding, they could use any source they choose - the Torah in Hebrew, the Old Testament in English, or the Junior Woodchuck Handbook.
Since my question was directed at Christians, they could make their own decision which source to use.
Ultimately, the God of the OT and NT are one and the same.
<snip>
Using this line of thinking Muslims also worship the same God. According to Muslims and the Koran:He is the only God (5:73, 4:87)
He claims to be the creator who created the universe in six days (10:3)
He claims to be sovereign (9:70)
He is knower of all things (2:29)
He created Adam and Eve (2:31, 7:190)
He was Abraham’s God (2:125)
He was the God who sent Moses and Aaron to Pharaoh to liberate the people of Israel (7:103)
He was the God who sent Jesus to earth: (3: 49-51)
He gave man the Torah (the Old Testament), the Gospel (the New Testament) and then the Koran (3:3).
In his weekly general audience in late May of 1999, Pope John Paul II addressed Muslims in a series discussing "interreligious dialog." He quotes from the 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church n. 841 which states, "... together with us they (Muslims) adore the one, merciful, God."
But there are many profound differences in the view of Allah as God compared to Jehovah God, compared to Jesus as God. Those between the God of the Muslims and that of Jews and Christians is even more pronounced. For instance, many Christians speak of God as spirit, or as both spirit and man (in Jesus), but Muslims think making God a man OR a spirit demeans God from his true nature which no man can ever know. The Koran specifically denies God as a Father, or Jesus as the Son of God, and the latter is denied by Jews as well. Instead both Muslims and Jews view Jesus as a prophet.
In the Koran God is completely unlimited in anything he might wish to do. He is not even limited by his own nature. He can choose to kill or have mercy. In many ways this is the view of ancient Jews as well. Christianity views God as limited by His own nature. The Koran lists 99 attributes of God--but they are all negative--what God is NOT like. No positive attributes are provided. In the Bible, both Jews and Christians find positive and negative aspects of God.
So, no, Christians do not worship the same God as the Jews. Christians see fulfillment of God in Jesus as a method of having God "overcome" some of the atrocities of the Old Testament that Jews attribute to Jehovah. A few Christians try to reconcile the ancient God of atrocities with the NT revelation in Jesus, but these are a bit reaching and tend to portray a God who is fickle (like that of the Muslims) rather than one who is consistent in His dealing with men.
The truth is not even Christians worship the same God as all other Christians. We have basically devolved into many different beliefs about the God Jehovah. The Jews on the other hand, are more consistent historically, than Christians regarding beliefs about their scripture--and even then there are "orthodox" Jews as compared to more "modern" Jews. Interestingly, my son who works for an Israeli corporation states that Jews in his own company state that fewer than ten percent of Jews in Israel are really "religious" in a traditional way. That's far less than Christians or Muslims.
Even though I am an Atheist, I often tell Theists, "Your god didn't give you a brain just so other people could tell you what to think."
Thank you.
May peace and love be with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur
First of all the "he" is a "she".
Actually I am not a woman.
I am a man.
Quote:
She usual refers to God also as a "she". But hear she says "him/her" and "he", that is new.
My god revealed herself to me through revelations. In reality she is both genders but she reveals herself to me as a flame in the form of a woman thus I usually refer to her as a she though in reality she is both. If she where not both genders then mankind could not have been created in her image.
The name I use for her is the All-Fire, he/she is the father of Christ. Yahweh attempted to spread hate and genocide since ancient times, trying to corrupt her people.
Quote:
She thinks that she is the recreation of a fallen angel or something like that, so you can imagine where her revelations come from. She may call herself a Christian, but in no way represents christian faith.
Reincarnation not recreation.
My revelations come from my god.
I am not a member of Mainstream Christianity, but I am a Christian none the less.
Quote:
But for some Christians who believe in only a god of love (no judgement, no hell) they think there is a different God in the OT, but that is not scriptural.
I believe that we Reap what we Sow in other words Karma so their is a form of justice.
We are judged and pay for our actions but I don't believe in hell.
You people take it upon yourselves to judge God. But it is God who will judge you. And I will stay out of the way and leave that in God's hands.
You are doing what the Bible wants you to do. Not judge. If you actually used your own sense of moral compass, you would realize that Moses was incredibly evil. He was a terrorist dictator who's doctrine of terror was responsible for almost 40 genocides against innocent people. YHWH had Moses have a man stoned to death for picking up sticks on his Sabbath. Moses called for the murders of all gays, and for the 3000 Jews who innocently erected a golden statue of a golden calf and worshipped it like any Hindu or Egyptian would. But you are not to judge Moses because he is the authority, and just seeking knowledge of what is right and what is wrong is the cause of all evil in the world, according to the Bible. So don't judge between what is good and what is evil because you are just a dirty little sinner, so who are you to judge? That is the Bible.
For those who might like scriptural citation of the claim that Yahweh commanded Genocide: Genocide at the hands of Yahweh and his people - Deuteronomy 2:34, Deuteronomy 3:6, Deuteronomy 7:2, Deuteronomy 7:16, Deuteronomy 13:15, Deuteronomy 20:16-17, Joshua 6:21, Joshua 10:40, 1 Samuel 15:2-3, Genesis 19:24, Numbers 21:1-2, Numbers 31:1-35, Joshua 8:1-25, Joshua 11:8, Joshua 11:12, Judges 1:14, Judges 3:28-29, Judges 20:35-37, Judges 20:46-48, Judges 21:10-14, 1 Samuel 6:19(should read 50,070 some translations say 70.), I Samuel 27:8-11, 2 Samuel 24,2 Kings 3:18-25, 2 Chronicles 14:12-14, 2 Chronicles 28:6, and Exodus 32:27-28
There is only one Lord of Host Father Almighty God Messiah Prince of Peace Jesus Christ with Spirit of God , as the one God worshiped by the Christians , the Jews and the Muslims , and some other bible based religions , which deny Jesus or Holy Spirit of God , as if you worship this Lord then It is Not pagan of the world beliefs .. Then most people of these belief forms will not recognize the other as being redeemed by God
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
Ultimately, the God of the OT and NT are one and the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
Using this line of thinking Muslims also worship the same God. According to Muslims and the Koran:He is the only God (5:73, 4:87)
He claims to be the creator who created the universe in six days (10:3)
He claims to be sovereign (9:70)
He is knower of all things (2:29)
He created Adam and Eve (2:31, 7:190)
He was Abraham’s God (2:125)
He was the God who sent Moses and Aaron to Pharaoh to liberate the people of Israel (7:103)
He was the God who sent Jesus to earth: (3: 49-51)
He gave man the Torah (the Old Testament), the Gospel (the New Testament) and then the Koran (3:3).
In his weekly general audience in late May of 1999, Pope John Paul II addressed Muslims in a series discussing "interreligious dialog." He quotes from the 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church n. 841 which states, "... together with us they (Muslims) adore the one, merciful, God."
But there are many profound differences in the view of Allah as God compared to Jehovah God, compared to Jesus as God. Those between the God of the Muslims and that of Jews and Christians is even more pronounced ... So, no, Christians do not worship the same God as the Jews. ... The truth is not even Christians worship the same God as all other Christians.
If you actually read my entire post, I already covered your entire line of thinking. When comparing Christianity, Judaism and Islam, you begin with the same being. The God of the Old Testament. Then you have each branch of Judeo-Christianity develop their dotrinal orthodoxy independent of one another. It should surprise nobody that we ended up with three very different versions of the same thing.
All three religions agree that the God they worship is the God of the Old Testament. The three religions disagree profoundly on how God is to be described. In my opinion, that's all just semantics. We all worship the same God. All three religions describe God as an infinite in three ways: Having existed for an infinite duration of time, having infinite power and having infinite knowledge. I'm not sure anybody can adequately and accurately describe an infinite being, yet we bicker and quarrel about how to properly describe this infinite being.
As to some Christians rejecting long-standing orthodoxy regarding the Holy Trinity, I already mentioned that as well. Within Christianity itself, we have a broad range of formulas for describing God. Unitarians claim it is one single being period. Trinitarians claim it is one being divided into three distinct persons. Jehovah's Witnesses claim that God the Father is Jehovah/Yaweh and that Jesus was his only begotten son and first creation, but that Jesus is inferior to Jehovah. Arians claim that while Jesus is indeed all-powerful and all-knowing, he was ultimately a created being. Mormonism claims that Jesus and Jehovah/Yaweh are one and the same and that God the Father's name is Elohim. There is an endless list of other formulas. The one thing all of Christianity has in common is their acceptance of the Messiahship and divinity of Jesus of Nazareth, born in Bethlehem in about 0 AD. Because the Bible does not explicitly and exhaustively define doctrinal orthodoxy regarding Jesus and his relationship to God the Father, so we are all left fumbling in the dark. I wholeheartedly disagree with denouncing anybody who doesn't agree with me as "not a real Christian" or "believing in a different Jesus" or anything of the sort. By the same token, I do not subscribe to rejecting Islam or Judaism for no other reason than them having a different formula for describing the same God. God must certainly think we are very silly. We cannot begin to comprehend what God truly is, yet here we bicker and argue like a bunch of two year old children fighting over the same toy.
How do you feel about people like me who feel Yahweh and Christs Father where two different gods?
Here's a question for you... How do you feel about people like me who feel that Yahweh/YHWH/Jehovah/Jesus Christ are all the same individual, and that Elohim was Jesus Christ's father?
How do you feel about people like me who feel Yahweh and Christs Father where two different gods?
I withhold judgement for the most part.
We have a very poor summary of God's dealings with humankind in the Old Testament. Old Testament writers and especially transcribers tended to credit God for absolutely everything. Case in point, Pharaoh did not harden his own heart. God did it. Out of the blue, God massacres entire civilizations with fires and floods. Nature didn't do it. God did it. In their enthusiasm to demonstrate that God was able to control absolutely everything, I think God got a lot of credit for doing some very mean things. We are also sorely lacking the whole story every single time. Taken on face value, the God that I know personally and the angry vindictive God sometimes portrayed in the Old Testament are clearly not the same being. For that reason, I respect your point of view. For my part, I think that if we had the full record of Old Testament events, we could easily reconcile the merciful God if the New Testament with that of the Old Testament. We're both thinking along the same lines and drawing very different conclusions from it.
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