Can TRUE Christians Lose Their Salvation? (Apostle Paul, Adam, judgement, Hebrew)
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Always beware of those who ignore clear and unambiguous statements of truth in the bible and instead create a false Theology using scripture that is unclear. Most times these false teachers will attempt to build a belief by ignoring the clear teaching and creating a different Theology from extremely weak and in most cases irrelevant to the argument texts. The first rule of bible understanding is all scripture must be interpreted by scripture. In other words the unknown is understood only in relation to the known. Therefore, you can not understand any portion of scripture that conflicts with that which is clearly stated.
As Christians, our greatest hope and confidence lies in the fact that at the moment of salvation we have eternal life. The indwelling of all three members of the Trinity, received at the moment of salvation, guarantees us eternal security. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit indwell the believer’s body to guarantee that he cannot lose his salvation.
As the Lord said in the Gospel of John, we receive salvation by our decision to believe in the saving work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross as the Son of God.
JOH 6:28‑29 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
No, I am not judging anyone (we are not talking about a parable). I simply do not see why you think the "rocky ground" people were born again. Would you like to explain that view?
I don't because that wasn't the point Jesus was making nor even speaking to when it comes to the "good soil" for that matter.
Jesus thinks of the "rocky ground" people as believers who don't remain in him and the "good soil" who do remain in him that produce fruit. Luke 8:11-15 NIV ( KJV \ YLT \ KJV reads much the same)
"Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root.They believefor a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."
" the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by perseveringproduce a crop."
The difference between the two is that one "retain it, and by persevering producing a crop" while the other one does not.
Which Jesus also teaches the same thing about found in John 15:4-9 when he teaches the truth about remaining in him.
Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
As for the teens I mentioned, I am sure some are saved, but many run on emotion for a day, and are not saved, which becomes evident in the days to follow. I am talking about from experience, because I attended such revivals and had the emotions, but was not saved until years later. It's like a "crush"vs "love".
I was at one of those myself with my daughter once and came away with where the focus of criticism should be on ... the organizers \ presenters of revival rather than on participants in the audience.
I don't because that wasn't the point Jesus was making nor even speaking to when it comes to the "good soil" for that matter.
Jesus thinks of the "rocky ground" people as believers who don't remain in him and the "good soil" who do remain in him that produce fruit. Luke 8:11-15 NIV ( KJV \ YLT \ KJV reads much the same)
"Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root.They believefor a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."
" the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by perseveringproduce a crop."
No, you think so. Jesus does not say they were born again believers. The verses do not say they were saved, so it is your personal opinion.
Read Acts 8:9-24 about Simon the sorcerer. He was even baptized, but in the end it turned out he was not yet saved. Peter told him "your heart is not right before God".
Quote:
I was at one of those myself with my daughter once and came away with where the focus of criticism should be on ... the organizers \ presenters of revival rather than on participants in the audience.
I didn't have any criticism for anyone, because I know only Christ can save the people, not the organizers. The events I went to were well organized.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 02-08-2014 at 12:36 PM..
No, you think so. Jesus does not say they were born again believers. The verses do not say they were saved, so it is your personal opinion.
Read Acts 8:9-24 about Simon the sorcerer. He was even baptized, but in the end it turned out he was not yet saved. Peter told him "your heart is not right before God".
Correct, "Jesus does not say they were born again believers" .... you are. You are the one who is inserting terminology where Jesus did not.
That's the "distorting the truth" of Acts 20:30 that I'm saying is occurring by the misdirection of the point of what Jesus was speaking to by your "born again", which you apparently don't want to acknowledge that Jesus also does not say that the "good soil" were born again believers.
The reason for Jesus' silence on naming one group "born again" is simple ... wasn't the topic to which he was addressing and focusing on.
One has to wantonly distort the truth of Jesus' focus in Sower and the Seed as OSAS does in order to make John 15:4-9 not apply what Jesus clearly is teaching.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
I didn't have any criticism for anyone, because I know only Christ can save the people, not the organizers. The events I went to were well organized.
Being organized well doesn't mean anything as correct theology is concerned, Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus are also well organized.
Last edited by twin.spin; 02-08-2014 at 01:27 PM..
No. Neither can true non-Christians. We had nothing to do with achieving our salvation and we can have nothing to do with losing it. But we DO have something to do with our sanctification under Christ's grace and love for us all. We must follow Christ's instructions to His disciples to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. That helps us to resonate (however imperfectly) with Christ's perfect grace and love for us all. Love is the key in which the heavenly symphony is played.
1 John 4:7 (King James Version)
7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1 John 4:7
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
1 John 3:18
Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
1 John 3:9 (King James Version)
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 2:29 (King James Version)
29If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
1 John 3:7 (King James Version)
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Correct, "Jesus does not say they were born again believers" .... you are. You are the one who is inserting terminology where Jesus did not.
Actually I specifically said it does not say it. Look again.
Quote:
That's the "distorting the truth" of Acts 20:30 that I'm saying is occurring by the misdirection of the point of what Jesus was speaking to by your "born again", which you apparently don't want to acknowledge that Jesus also does not say that the "good soil" were born again believers.
What can I say? You are presenting your opinion as fact, and I am trying to tell you that the Bible does not say what you claim it says. You assume Jesus meant something, but the Bible does not prove your assumption to be correct.
Quote:
The reason for Jesus' silence on naming one group "born again" is simple ... wasn't the topic to which he was addressing and focusing on.
Why are you using it as an example of people losing their salvation? You would have to be saved in order to have your salvation taken away. If the rocky ground people were not saved, then it is not a valid example.
Actually I specifically said it does not say it. Look again.
post #180 by you is the first mention of "born again" ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
No, I am not judging anyone (we are not talking about a parable). I simply do not see why you think the "rocky ground" people were born again. Would you like to explain that view?
I've been explaining since then it is not I who has introduced terminology that Jesus does not.
And Jesus does not simply because that wasn't the focus of that but rather the focus was that like of John 15:4-9 .... which you are purposefully avoiding
the "rocky people" are who believe but do not remain in him .... they fall away
the "good soil people" are "who hear the word, retain it, and by perseveringproduce a crop." ... they remain in him
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
What can I say? You are presenting your opinion as fact, and I am trying to tell you that the Bible does not say what you claim it says. You assume Jesus meant something, but the Bible does not prove your assumption to be correct.
Why are you using it as an example of people losing their salvation? You would have to be saved in order to have your salvation taken away. If the rocky ground people were not saved, then it is not a valid example.
Why ... because it one of many references that teach the same concept which OSAS distorts the truth as Acts 20:30 says will occur.
Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth Acts 20:30
kinda hard to get away from that fact ... which proves why Decision Theology breeds OSAS which breeds Millennialism which breeds the scoffing of the Sacraments as mere representations
post #180 by you is the first mention of "born again" ....
I've been explaining since then it is not I who has introduced terminology that Jesus does not.
And Jesus does not simply because that wasn't the focus of that but rather the focus was that like of John 15:4-9 .... which you are purposefully avoiding
the "rocky people" are who believe but do not remain in him .... they fall away
the "good soil people" are "who hear the word, retain it, and by perseveringproduce a crop." ... they remain in him
You said Jesus thinks of the "rocky ground" people as believers. I am just pointing out the Bible does not say they were.
Who abides in Christ? What does it mean?
“Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.” (1 John 4:15)
That's it.
The problem with your "produce fruit or perish" teaching is the fact that Jesus Himself says it is impossible for people to produce fruit on their own. People can produce fruit only if Jesus makes is happen. He says "no branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me".
You are less in control of your fruit production than you realize. He won't doom anyone in a moment of weakness, or during fruitless years. It is also impossible for you to settle your own salvation, because only Christ can produce that kind of fruit, and He did it when you confessed He is the son of God.
You remain in Christ by trusting Him with your salvation. You don't do it by trying to perform works, the works follow faith, not the other way round. Jesus freed you from the slavery of sin, and made you a part of the family. You can stop feeling like a slave.
Quote:
Why ... because it one of many references that teach the same concept which OSAS distorts the truth as Acts 20:30 says will occur.
Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth Acts 20:30
kinda hard to get away from that fact ... which proves why Decision Theology breeds OSAS which breeds Millennialism which breeds the scoffing of the Sacraments as mere representations
I hope you realize that anyone could throw that accusation right back at you. Disagreeing with someone's views does not boil down to distorting the truth.
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Can TRUE Christians Lose Their Salvation?
